Jehovah's Witnesses Bible

[Ross]

Much debate has taken place over the change the Jehovah's Witnesses made to John 1:1 rendering GOD as 'a god'. Virtually all references made to the Divinity of Jesus Christ in the NWT of the Greek Scriptures included adjustments to the literal rendering of the Koine' Greek to English, with the notable exception of John 20:28.

This translation of the Greek Scriptures was performed in secret by a Translation Committee led by the President and Vice President without the knowledge of the Governing Body who had no option but to accept this once it was revealed, as back then the Governing Body had little power.

After this they produced the Hebrew Scriptures, and It didn't take long for them to carry out similar unfaithful translation.

Almost every Bible ever written translates the second part of Genesis 1:2 as it appears to us in the Hebrew Masoretic Text:

"And The Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters"

Jehovah's Witnesses assert that the Spirit of God, The Holy Spirit, is a none intelligent, none personal form of Gods power, likened in their literature to electricity that makes things work or happen.

Their official description and interpretation of the Holy Spirit is 'Gods active force'.

Genesis 1:2 reads in the New World Translation:

" and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters."

Is this not the most blatant insertion of pre conceived doctrine into scripture you have ever seen?

[LittleNipper]

His 'fingers' His 'hands' His 'active force'. It's trying to describe something in human terms that we can't even begin to truly understand how God's power works. To just say 'spirit' or 'wind' doesn't make a good word picture of what was happening on the Earth as it was being created. I don't understand why Gen 1:2 is being cherry picked for proof-texting the trinity anyway.

It isn't, and this wasn't the purpose of my thread. But that is why your translators added spurious words that no one else has ever translated from the Hebrew. It's almost as bad as your KJV example of 1st John 5:7.

This has been cherry picked to demonstrate that your official Jehovah's Witness doctrine on the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, was injected into the second verse of the Bible.

God's own words from the Hebrew manuscripts: 'The Spirit of God' don't give a good enough picture of your faith's beliefs, so they had to be changed and corrected.

You need to do a lot more research before you continue to denigrate JWs and the NWT. Your problems with them are fatuous and destructive to peace and truth. BTW, I John 5:7 has been taken out of many versions of the Bible because scholars know it is spurious. No one is cherry picking anything here. We are commenting with the spirit of truth. (John 4:23)

Really??

Exactly what Bibles are you thinking of that removed the verse from their versions? I ask because from just one source alone I counted 62 Bibles that currently include I John 5:7. Plus the New World Translation (2013 Revision) Bible.

I John 5:7 (NWT)
7 For there are three witness bearers:

.

I picked up three sources of what I was talking about, and this is what I see:

"7)For there are three that testify: 8)the Spirit and the water and the blood: and the three are in agreement." New American Standard Bible

"7)So we have a threefold testimony, 8)from the spirit, the water and the blood, and all three agree." 21st Century New Testament

"7)For there are three witness bearers, 8)the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." New World Translation

I could go on. This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus (1964); Jose Maria Bover (1968); United Bible Societies (1975); Nestle-Aland (1979). After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No 61 (16th century) and no.629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vg add the words: "in heaven, the Father the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one." So there is nothing to prove a trinity where there are three personages of equal power and godship.

Only GOD can forgive sin. Is this a true or false statement?

Ultimately it is God who can forgive sins, but also the Person (His Son) that He designates to forgive sins. God, YHWH, has designated many things for the Son to do. Still, the power and authority given comes from YHWH. The Son could do nothing without the Father's permission and His designations.

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing: for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19, NASB)

John 5:19 is true because our LORD JESUS CHRIST is one with HIS FATHER. Revelation 4:8
“'Holy, holy, holy. is the Lord God Almighty,'. who was, and is, and is to come.

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection. If ever there were a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number three was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject.

[2timothy316]

His 'fingers' His 'hands' His 'active force'. It's trying to describe something in human terms that we can't even begin to truly understand how God's power works. To just say 'spirit' or 'wind' doesn't make a good word picture of what was happening on the Earth as it was being created. I don't understand why Gen 1:2 is being cherry picked for proof-texting the trinity anyway.

It isn't, and this wasn't the purpose of my thread. But that is why your translators added spurious words that no one else has ever translated from the Hebrew. It's almost as bad as your KJV example of 1st John 5:7.

This has been cherry picked to demonstrate that your official Jehovah's Witness doctrine on the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, was injected into the second verse of the Bible.

God's own words from the Hebrew manuscripts: 'The Spirit of God' don't give a good enough picture of your faith's beliefs, so they had to be changed and corrected.

You need to do a lot more research before you continue to denigrate JWs and the NWT. Your problems with them are fatuous and destructive to peace and truth. BTW, I John 5:7 has been taken out of many versions of the Bible because scholars know it is spurious. No one is cherry picking anything here. We are commenting with the spirit of truth. (John 4:23)

Really??

Exactly what Bibles are you thinking of that removed the verse from their versions? I ask because from just one source alone I counted 62 Bibles that currently include I John 5:7. Plus the New World Translation (2013 Revision) Bible.

I John 5:7 (NWT)
7 For there are three witness bearers:

.

I picked up three sources of what I was talking about, and this is what I see:

"7)For there are three that testify: 8)the Spirit and the water and the blood: and the three are in agreement." New American Standard Bible

"7)So we have a threefold testimony, 8)from the spirit, the water and the blood, and all three agree." 21st Century New Testament

"7)For there are three witness bearers, 8)the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." New World Translation

I could go on. This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus (1964); Jose Maria Bover (1968); United Bible Societies (1975); Nestle-Aland (1979). After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No 61 (16th century) and no.629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vg add the words: "in heaven, the Father the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one." So there is nothing to prove a trinity where there are three personages of equal power and godship.

Only GOD can forgive sin. Is this a true or false statement?

Ultimately it is God who can forgive sins, but also the Person (His Son) that He designates to forgive sins. God, YHWH, has designated many things for the Son to do. Still, the power and authority given comes from YHWH. The Son could do nothing without the Father's permission and His designations.

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing: for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19, NASB)

John 5:19 is true because our LORD JESUS CHRIST is one with HIS FATHER. Revelation 4:8
“'Holy, holy, holy. is the Lord God Almighty,'. who was, and is, and is to come.

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection. If ever there were a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number three was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject.

The number three signifies emphasis, strength or intensity.

Read:
Ec 4:12 - Strength
Mt 26:34, 75; Joh 21:15-17 - asking Peter three time if he loved to show emphasis on how much Peter loved Jesus
Ac 10:1-16, 28-35, 47, 48 - God showing Peter a vision three times in a row to show the intensity of God impartiality.
Isa 6:3; Re 4:8 - Showing the intensity of God's holiness
Eze 21:27 - Shows emphatically that no kings would sit on the throne in Jerusalem until the Messiah came.
Re 8:13 - Intensity of the turmoil said to come upon the Earth.

Seven is the number that signifies completeness.
Read:
Ex 20:10 On the seventh day God rested after he completed creating the earth and set the Sabbath according to this to complete a week.
Ps 12:6 - Seven is shown in poetic scriptures to show purity, completeness and perfection.

To tie everything that has to do with three to a trinity is a mad-made tradition.

[Ross]

When it comes to discussing the New World Translation (NTW) and Bibles such as the New International Version (NIV), rhe New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), the NET Bible (New English Translation), etc., we need to make a distinction between exegesis and eisegesis.

With exegesis, we go to the text, see what it says, and allow it to determine our doctrine. With eisegesis, we go to the text with our doctrines and interpret the Bible in light of them, changing the meaning of the text in doing so.

The New World Translation is an example of eisegesis as its so-called translators took the Bible and changed those passages that didn’t line up with their beliefs, especially in the case of Christ and his deity as the second person of the Triune Godhead. The JWs altered these passages because they did not fit JW beliefs.

On the other hand, the NIV translators and those of the NRSV, NET, etc. practiced exegesis, allowing the Greek text to dictate their beliefs as they were intent on correctly interpreting God’s Word.

A translation is only as good as its translators. When the New World Translation was first released, its translators were not named. The JW leaders said this was because, out of humility, they did not want their names know.

However, I think people were kept in the dark re: the names of those men because none of them had the credentials to produce a valid and viable Bible. Over the years, the names of the translators were revealed by a number of people including Raymond Franz whose uncle, Frederick Franz, was the main interpreter. Franz was the only one of the six members of the group to have actually studied Greek formally (he said he was self-taught in Hebrew). As it turns out, Franz had taken two courses in Greek (University of Cincinnati totaling less than 25 hours of instruction)

I, too, have taken two courses in Greek, including Advanced Greek, for which I had to translate a section of the New Testament to pass the course. I can assure you that taking two courses in the language is NOT enough to prepare one to render a translation of the Bible. The language is too difficult and the rules of grammar and the nuances too great for someone with that modest training to tackle a translation of the New Testament. So, of course, the JW leaders hid the names of the translators for as long as possible, knowing that they didn’t have the credentials to do a good job.

On the other hand, look at the scholars behind the NIV, the NRSV, etc. They do not hide their identities, not because of arrogance, but because of credibility. Scholars with doctorates who were immersed in the languages of the Bible, who taught them at the university/seminary level and wrote textbooks for Greek students were behind the translations. For example, renowned Bible scholar, teacher and author, Bruce Metzger, headed the NRSV team of translators. You can read his background here:

https://bible.org/article/memoriam-bruc ... -1914-2007

My copy of the NRSV has a three-page introduction from the committee that translated it which talks about the process of translating. This is as important as the “who” re: translation. We can assess whether their methodology was valid and most likely to lead to an accurate translation or not. The Jesus Seminar, for example, was debunked because of their flawed methodology.

The NET Bible was translated by a team led by Dan Wallace who is considered to be one of the leading textual critics in the world. He has authored textbooks used in the teaching of Greek in universities and seminaries around the world, including the one I attended in Toronto, Canada.

And there are literally dozens and dozens of people behind Christian translations. The Septuagint was named that because there were 70 translators involved in its translation. The NET Bible had 25 scholars, not a mere six who were not qualified to be translators in the first place. Therefore, a great many scholars have discussed and compared and studied to get the right translation into English.

It is also important to know what documents translators used as some are more reliable than others. Translators of the NIV, NET, etc. share the sources they used -- and they used a lot as they made comparison after comparison between texts to ensure they were getting the right interpretation.

So, ultimately, we have to ask ourselves these questions:

Who do we trust to provide a reliable translation of the Bible? Do we trust men who didn’t know either Greek or Hebrew well enough to do the job? Or do we trust scholars who have been studying and working with the languages for years?

And do we trust a version of the Bible that the majority of renowned scholars, including the aforementioned Bruce Metzger, reject as inaccurate and misleading? Or do we trust ones that are backed by a legion of reputable scholars?

Lastly, do we trust people who practice eisegesis or do we trust people who engage in exegesis?

Here are some articles for further reading:

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... anslation/

https://www.gotquestions.org/New-World-Translation.html

Some fine points made there. Thank you. I doubt you will get a reply from the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[2timothy316]

When it comes to discussing the New World Translation (NTW) and Bibles such as the New International Version (NIV), rhe New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), the NET Bible (New English Translation), etc., we need to make a distinction between exegesis and eisegesis.

With exegesis, we go to the text, see what it says, and allow it to determine our doctrine. With eisegesis, we go to the text with our doctrines and interpret the Bible in light of them, changing the meaning of the text in doing so.

The New World Translation is an example of eisegesis as its so-called translators took the Bible and changed those passages that didn’t line up with their beliefs, especially in the case of Christ and his deity as the second person of the Triune Godhead. The JWs altered these passages because they did not fit JW beliefs.

On the other hand, the NIV translators and those of the NRSV, NET, etc. practiced exegesis, allowing the Greek text to dictate their beliefs as they were intent on correctly interpreting God’s Word.

A translation is only as good as its translators. When the New World Translation was first released, its translators were not named. The JW leaders said this was because, out of humility, they did not want their names know.

However, I think people were kept in the dark re: the names of those men because none of them had the credentials to produce a valid and viable Bible. Over the years, the names of the translators were revealed by a number of people including Raymond Franz whose uncle, Frederick Franz, was the main interpreter. Franz was the only one of the six members of the group to have actually studied Greek formally (he said he was self-taught in Hebrew). As it turns out, Franz had taken two courses in Greek (University of Cincinnati totaling less than 25 hours of instruction)

I, too, have taken two courses in Greek, including Advanced Greek, for which I had to translate a section of the New Testament to pass the course. I can assure you that taking two courses in the language is NOT enough to prepare one to render a translation of the Bible. The language is too difficult and the rules of grammar and the nuances too great for someone with that modest training to tackle a translation of the New Testament. So, of course, the JW leaders hid the names of the translators for as long as possible, knowing that they didn’t have the credentials to do a good job.

On the other hand, look at the scholars behind the NIV, the NRSV, etc. They do not hide their identities, not because of arrogance, but because of credibility. Scholars with doctorates who were immersed in the languages of the Bible, who taught them at the university/seminary level and wrote textbooks for Greek students were behind the translations. For example, renowned Bible scholar, teacher and author, Bruce Metzger, headed the NRSV team of translators. You can read his background here:

https://bible.org/article/memoriam-bruc ... -1914-2007

My copy of the NRSV has a three-page introduction from the committee that translated it which talks about the process of translating. This is as important as the “who” re: translation. We can assess whether their methodology was valid and most likely to lead to an accurate translation or not. The Jesus Seminar, for example, was debunked because of their flawed methodology.

The NET Bible was translated by a team led by Dan Wallace who is considered to be one of the leading textual critics in the world. He has authored textbooks used in the teaching of Greek in universities and seminaries around the world, including the one I attended in Toronto, Canada.

And there are literally dozens and dozens of people behind Christian translations. The Septuagint was named that because there were 70 translators involved in its translation. The NET Bible had 25 scholars, not a mere six who were not qualified to be translators in the first place. Therefore, a great many scholars have discussed and compared and studied to get the right translation into English.

It is also important to know what documents translators used as some are more reliable than others. Translators of the NIV, NET, etc. share the sources they used -- and they used a lot as they made comparison after comparison between texts to ensure they were getting the right interpretation.

So, ultimately, we have to ask ourselves these questions:

Who do we trust to provide a reliable translation of the Bible? Do we trust men who didn’t know either Greek or Hebrew well enough to do the job? Or do we trust scholars who have been studying and working with the languages for years?

And do we trust a version of the Bible that the majority of renowned scholars, including the aforementioned Bruce Metzger, reject as inaccurate and misleading? Or do we trust ones that are backed by a legion of reputable scholars?

Lastly, do we trust people who practice eisegesis or do we trust people who engage in exegesis?

Here are some articles for further reading:

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... anslation/

https://www.gotquestions.org/New-World-Translation.html

Some fine points made there. Thank you. I doubt you will get a reply from the Jehovah's Witnesses.

No reason to reply. Its comments by a person that has never read the NWT and studied why it is translated why it is. Its full of guessing and not much else. If he wants to point something out specially then it can be addressed. But making blanket statements is hardly making good points. Jews didn't believe Jehovah was part of a trinity. The first century Christians (when the Greek Scriptures were written) didn't either thus I find this comment hilarious!!! "The New World Translation is an example of eisegesis as its so-called translators took the Bible and changed those passages that didn’t line up with their beliefs, especially in the case of Christ and his deity as the second person of the Triune Godhead. The JWs altered these passages because they did not fit JW beliefs." The trinity doesn't fit with Jewish beliefs or 1st century Christian beliefs and yet he clams JWs use eisegesis. Its so funny its absurd.

[LittleNipper]

His 'fingers' His 'hands' His 'active force'. It's trying to describe something in human terms that we can't even begin to truly understand how God's power works. To just say 'spirit' or 'wind' doesn't make a good word picture of what was happening on the Earth as it was being created. I don't understand why Gen 1:2 is being cherry picked for proof-texting the trinity anyway.

It isn't, and this wasn't the purpose of my thread. But that is why your translators added spurious words that no one else has ever translated from the Hebrew. It's almost as bad as your KJV example of 1st John 5:7.

This has been cherry picked to demonstrate that your official Jehovah's Witness doctrine on the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, was injected into the second verse of the Bible.

God's own words from the Hebrew manuscripts: 'The Spirit of God' don't give a good enough picture of your faith's beliefs, so they had to be changed and corrected.

You need to do a lot more research before you continue to denigrate JWs and the NWT. Your problems with them are fatuous and destructive to peace and truth. BTW, I John 5:7 has been taken out of many versions of the Bible because scholars know it is spurious. No one is cherry picking anything here. We are commenting with the spirit of truth. (John 4:23)

Really??

Exactly what Bibles are you thinking of that removed the verse from their versions? I ask because from just one source alone I counted 62 Bibles that currently include I John 5:7. Plus the New World Translation (2013 Revision) Bible.

I John 5:7 (NWT)
7 For there are three witness bearers:

.

I picked up three sources of what I was talking about, and this is what I see:

"7)For there are three that testify: 8)the Spirit and the water and the blood: and the three are in agreement." New American Standard Bible

"7)So we have a threefold testimony, 8)from the spirit, the water and the blood, and all three agree." 21st Century New Testament

"7)For there are three witness bearers, 8)the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." New World Translation

I could go on. This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus (1964); Jose Maria Bover (1968); United Bible Societies (1975); Nestle-Aland (1979). After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No 61 (16th century) and no.629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vg add the words: "in heaven, the Father the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one." So there is nothing to prove a trinity where there are three personages of equal power and godship.

Only GOD can forgive sin. Is this a true or false statement?

Ultimately it is God who can forgive sins, but also the Person (His Son) that He designates to forgive sins. God, YHWH, has designated many things for the Son to do. Still, the power and authority given comes from YHWH. The Son could do nothing without the Father's permission and His designations.

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing: for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19, NASB)

John 5:19 is true because our LORD JESUS CHRIST is one with HIS FATHER. Revelation 4:8
“'Holy, holy, holy. is the Lord God Almighty,'. who was, and is, and is to come.

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection. If ever there were a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number three was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject.

The number three signifies emphasis, strength or intensity.

Read:
Ec 4:12 - Strength
Mt 26:34, 75; Joh 21:15-17 - asking Peter three time if he loved to show emphasis on how much Peter loved Jesus
Ac 10:1-16, 28-35, 47, 48 - God showing Peter a vision three times in a row to show the intensity of God impartiality.
Isa 6:3; Re 4:8 - Showing the intensity of God's holiness
Eze 21:27 - Shows emphatically that no kings would sit on the throne in Jerusalem until the Messiah came.
Re 8:13 - Intensity of the turmoil said to come upon the Earth.

Seven is the number that signifies completeness.
Read:
Ex 20:10 On the seventh day God rested after he completed creating the earth and set the Sabbath according to this to complete a week.
Ps 12:6 - Seven is shown in poetic scriptures to show purity, completeness and perfection.

To tie everything that has to do with three to a trinity is a mad-made tradition.

Which is exactly what the trinity signifies. Before GOD made anything, HE was still total LOVE because the three loved each other to perfection and eternally...

[onewithhim]

His 'fingers' His 'hands' His 'active force'. It's trying to describe something in human terms that we can't even begin to truly understand how God's power works. To just say 'spirit' or 'wind' doesn't make a good word picture of what was happening on the Earth as it was being created. I don't understand why Gen 1:2 is being cherry picked for proof-texting the trinity anyway.

It isn't, and this wasn't the purpose of my thread. But that is why your translators added spurious words that no one else has ever translated from the Hebrew. It's almost as bad as your KJV example of 1st John 5:7.

This has been cherry picked to demonstrate that your official Jehovah's Witness doctrine on the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, was injected into the second verse of the Bible.

God's own words from the Hebrew manuscripts: 'The Spirit of God' don't give a good enough picture of your faith's beliefs, so they had to be changed and corrected.

You need to do a lot more research before you continue to denigrate JWs and the NWT. Your problems with them are fatuous and destructive to peace and truth. BTW, I John 5:7 has been taken out of many versions of the Bible because scholars know it is spurious. No one is cherry picking anything here. We are commenting with the spirit of truth. (John 4:23)

Really??

Exactly what Bibles are you thinking of that removed the verse from their versions? I ask because from just one source alone I counted 62 Bibles that currently include I John 5:7. Plus the New World Translation (2013 Revision) Bible.

I John 5:7 (NWT)
7 For there are three witness bearers:

.

I picked up three sources of what I was talking about, and this is what I see:

"7)For there are three that testify: 8)the Spirit and the water and the blood: and the three are in agreement." New American Standard Bible

"7)So we have a threefold testimony, 8)from the spirit, the water and the blood, and all three agree." 21st Century New Testament

"7)For there are three witness bearers, 8)the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." New World Translation

I could go on. This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus (1964); Jose Maria Bover (1968); United Bible Societies (1975); Nestle-Aland (1979). After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No 61 (16th century) and no.629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vg add the words: "in heaven, the Father the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one." So there is nothing to prove a trinity where there are three personages of equal power and godship.

Only GOD can forgive sin. Is this a true or false statement?

Ultimately it is God who can forgive sins, but also the Person (His Son) that He designates to forgive sins. God, YHWH, has designated many things for the Son to do. Still, the power and authority given comes from YHWH. The Son could do nothing without the Father's permission and His designations.

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing: for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19, NASB)

John 5:19 is true because our LORD JESUS CHRIST is one with HIS FATHER. Revelation 4:8
“'Holy, holy, holy. is the Lord God Almighty,'. who was, and is, and is to come.

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection. If ever there were a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number three was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject.

Nothing is "cherry-picked" by Jehovah's Witnesses. There is nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that the Holy Spirit is a Person. It was "Poured out" on the disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost. How can a Person be poured out?

Jesus is one with his Father in that they are in agreement. This is brought out in the 17th chapter of the Gospel of John where Jesus prayed to the Father about his disciples. He prayed: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You Father are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that You sent me. The glory that You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one." (John 17:20-22, NASB)

So for Jesus and the disciples to be "one" with the Father and each other, they are merely in agreement. Jesus is not the Father. Otherwise, wouldn't the disciples also be God?

Also, Revelation 4:8 refers to the Father, Jehovah. Not Jesus.

[2timothy316]

His 'fingers' His 'hands' His 'active force'. It's trying to describe something in human terms that we can't even begin to truly understand how God's power works. To just say 'spirit' or 'wind' doesn't make a good word picture of what was happening on the Earth as it was being created. I don't understand why Gen 1:2 is being cherry picked for proof-texting the trinity anyway.

It isn't, and this wasn't the purpose of my thread. But that is why your translators added spurious words that no one else has ever translated from the Hebrew. It's almost as bad as your KJV example of 1st John 5:7.

This has been cherry picked to demonstrate that your official Jehovah's Witness doctrine on the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, was injected into the second verse of the Bible.

God's own words from the Hebrew manuscripts: 'The Spirit of God' don't give a good enough picture of your faith's beliefs, so they had to be changed and corrected.

You need to do a lot more research before you continue to denigrate JWs and the NWT. Your problems with them are fatuous and destructive to peace and truth. BTW, I John 5:7 has been taken out of many versions of the Bible because scholars know it is spurious. No one is cherry picking anything here. We are commenting with the spirit of truth. (John 4:23)

Really??

Exactly what Bibles are you thinking of that removed the verse from their versions? I ask because from just one source alone I counted 62 Bibles that currently include I John 5:7. Plus the New World Translation (2013 Revision) Bible.

I John 5:7 (NWT)
7 For there are three witness bearers:

.

I picked up three sources of what I was talking about, and this is what I see:

"7)For there are three that testify: 8)the Spirit and the water and the blood: and the three are in agreement." New American Standard Bible

"7)So we have a threefold testimony, 8)from the spirit, the water and the blood, and all three agree." 21st Century New Testament

"7)For there are three witness bearers, 8)the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." New World Translation

I could go on. This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus (1964); Jose Maria Bover (1968); United Bible Societies (1975); Nestle-Aland (1979). After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No 61 (16th century) and no.629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vg add the words: "in heaven, the Father the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one." So there is nothing to prove a trinity where there are three personages of equal power and godship.

Only GOD can forgive sin. Is this a true or false statement?

Ultimately it is God who can forgive sins, but also the Person (His Son) that He designates to forgive sins. God, YHWH, has designated many things for the Son to do. Still, the power and authority given comes from YHWH. The Son could do nothing without the Father's permission and His designations.

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing: for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19, NASB)

John 5:19 is true because our LORD JESUS CHRIST is one with HIS FATHER. Revelation 4:8
“'Holy, holy, holy. is the Lord God Almighty,'. who was, and is, and is to come.

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection. If ever there were a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number three was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject.

The number three signifies emphasis, strength or intensity.

Read:
Ec 4:12 - Strength
Mt 26:34, 75; Joh 21:15-17 - asking Peter three time if he loved to show emphasis on how much Peter loved Jesus
Ac 10:1-16, 28-35, 47, 48 - God showing Peter a vision three times in a row to show the intensity of God impartiality.
Isa 6:3; Re 4:8 - Showing the intensity of God's holiness
Eze 21:27 - Shows emphatically that no kings would sit on the throne in Jerusalem until the Messiah came.
Re 8:13 - Intensity of the turmoil said to come upon the Earth.

Seven is the number that signifies completeness.
Read:
Ex 20:10 On the seventh day God rested after he completed creating the earth and set the Sabbath according to this to complete a week.
Ps 12:6 - Seven is shown in poetic scriptures to show purity, completeness and perfection.

To tie everything that has to do with three to a trinity is a mad-made tradition.

Which is exactly what the trinity signifies. Before GOD made anything, HE was still total LOVE because the three loved each other to perfection and eternally...

This is not scriptural. It is eisegesis in action.

[Ross]

Jews didn't believe Jehovah was part of a trinity.

Folks on here who study the Bible don't believe that Jehovah was part of a Trinity either.

[LittleNipper]

His 'fingers' His 'hands' His 'active force'. It's trying to describe something in human terms that we can't even begin to truly understand how God's power works. To just say 'spirit' or 'wind' doesn't make a good word picture of what was happening on the Earth as it was being created. I don't understand why Gen 1:2 is being cherry picked for proof-texting the trinity anyway.

It isn't, and this wasn't the purpose of my thread. But that is why your translators added spurious words that no one else has ever translated from the Hebrew. It's almost as bad as your KJV example of 1st John 5:7.

This has been cherry picked to demonstrate that your official Jehovah's Witness doctrine on the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, was injected into the second verse of the Bible.

God's own words from the Hebrew manuscripts: 'The Spirit of God' don't give a good enough picture of your faith's beliefs, so they had to be changed and corrected.

You need to do a lot more research before you continue to denigrate JWs and the NWT. Your problems with them are fatuous and destructive to peace and truth. BTW, I John 5:7 has been taken out of many versions of the Bible because scholars know it is spurious. No one is cherry picking anything here. We are commenting with the spirit of truth. (John 4:23)

Really??

Exactly what Bibles are you thinking of that removed the verse from their versions? I ask because from just one source alone I counted 62 Bibles that currently include I John 5:7. Plus the New World Translation (2013 Revision) Bible.

I John 5:7 (NWT)
7 For there are three witness bearers:

.

I picked up three sources of what I was talking about, and this is what I see:

"7)For there are three that testify: 8)the Spirit and the water and the blood: and the three are in agreement." New American Standard Bible

"7)So we have a threefold testimony, 8)from the spirit, the water and the blood, and all three agree." 21st Century New Testament

"7)For there are three witness bearers, 8)the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." New World Translation

I could go on. This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus (1964); Jose Maria Bover (1968); United Bible Societies (1975); Nestle-Aland (1979). After "witness bearers" the cursive mss No 61 (16th century) and no.629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vg add the words: "in heaven, the Father the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one." So there is nothing to prove a trinity where there are three personages of equal power and godship.

Only GOD can forgive sin. Is this a true or false statement?

Ultimately it is God who can forgive sins, but also the Person (His Son) that He designates to forgive sins. God, YHWH, has designated many things for the Son to do. Still, the power and authority given comes from YHWH. The Son could do nothing without the Father's permission and His designations.

"Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing: for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.'" (John 5:19, NASB)

John 5:19 is true because our LORD JESUS CHRIST is one with HIS FATHER. Revelation 4:8
“'Holy, holy, holy. is the Lord God Almighty,'. who was, and is, and is to come.

The number three biblically represents divine wholeness, completeness and perfection. If ever there were a desire to highlight an idea, thought, event or noteworthy figure in the Bible for their prominence, the number three was used to put a divine stamp of completion or fulfillment on the subject.

Nothing is "cherry-picked" by Jehovah's Witnesses. There is nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that the Holy Spirit is a Person. It was "Poured out" on the disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost. How can a Person be poured out?

Jesus is one with his Father in that they are in agreement. This is brought out in the 17th chapter of the Gospel of John where Jesus prayed to the Father about his disciples. He prayed: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You Father are in me and I in You, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that You sent me. The glory that You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one." (John 17:20-22, NASB)

So for Jesus and the disciples to be "one" with the Father and each other, they are merely in agreement. Jesus is not the Father. Otherwise, wouldn't the disciples also be God?

Also, Revelation 4:8 refers to the Father, Jehovah. Not Jesus.

The HOLY SPIRIT isn't human but a spirit as is GOD the FATHER. The difference is that JESUS is ONE with the FATHER and humans may become one with the FATHER only through JESUS CHRIST and the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT. Neither you nor I can become GOD; however, CHRIST is GOD and cannot become GOD.

[2timothy316]

Jews didn't believe Jehovah was part of a trinity.

Folks on here who study the Bible don't believe that Jehovah was part of a Trinity either.

Just saying this doesn't prove anything. Scriptures?