The New World Translation does not change John 1:1

[EastwardTraveler]

Here is a thread I started on another forum, but wanted to put it up here as well. I am new here, but I am already enjoying this forum much better. Less trolls and better discussion and attitudes.
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This is a response to a tread about John 1:1 and how the New World Translation corrects this mistake about calling the Word "God". The NWT claims to fix this issue by calling the Word "a god". Next the assertion is there are many gods in the Bible and being a god is different than being God, implying that God is not a god. Being a god is said to be more of a title or status, and nothing could be further from the truth.

First there is a word play here does not exist in the Hebrew. There is no capitalization in Hebrew, so in English terms, there is no big or little g. The context of the scripture would have let the reader know which god is being talked about. Even from a grammatical point of view this changes nothing. Here is what I mean. It is grammatically correct and scripturally correct for me to say that "God is a god". God is just a proper pronoun letting us know which god we are talking about. A god is not a status but the nature of something. God is a god because he happens to be a spiritually divine being.

So changing John 1:1 does not change the problem of the Word being called God. You are still left with a big problem of the identity of Jesus if he was by nature an elohim.

The next tactic that will be used to to bring up that there are many gods in the Bible. This is a silly argument, because all of the other gods of the Bible are false gods or men calling themselves gods. Neither of the two pleases God, so I find it odd that this is used to justify the Word being called a god/elohim and he not be God. Lets break it down even further. Just because men made up gods and created images to them, does not make them a real god. Same if a man calls himself or another person a god, it does not make them a true god. Again this does not please God to do so.

Here is my beleif, that God/elohim is the only real god/elohim in the scriptures. All other gods/elohim are false gods/elohim. No where in scripture is it a good thing to be call a god/elohim if the thing being talked about is not God himself.

While I started off mentioning The NWT I am eager to hear from all who do not believe that Jesus is God, not just Jehovahs Witness. I prefer not to hear from Trinitarians and Unitarians on this post, but ultimately am not opposed to it.

My last request is that for those responding, try and keep it short. I do not want a page of verses quoted and a dissertation on each on. Lets try and keep it to a verse or two at a time so we can actually have a discussion that is meaningful.

Thanks and look forward to hearing from all of you out there.

[JehovahsWitness]

[JehovahsWitness]

Never said there was only one elohim. I have said over and over again that there are many elohim...

The scribe quotes Isaiah 45:21 saying there is no other elohim and Jesus responds saying, "you are not far from the Kingdom"

♦ So how do you reconcile the two ideas? You say there are "many elohim" but you know that Isaiah states "there is no other elohim [but YHWH]."

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay then in Greek Satan is THE GOD. Your point?

Does that not violate Isaiah 43:10. 43:10 is not just about worship but no other Gods were created before or after Jehovah, yet there is one. Isaiah 45:5 says there are not other Gods.

ISAIAH 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God - ESV

QUESTION: Since the bible both refers to pagan gods and says there is no God besides YHWH (Jehovah) is this a contradiction?

• No, "no other" (as found in Isaiah 43:10 and 45:5) is highlighting that YHWH is "alone" in his position as the elohim deservjng of worship. The one personage that holds the position of supreme ruler of the universe (compare John 17:3). The expression "there is no other [God]" therefore should be understood in a relative sense not in the absolute (ie no other god that compares to YHWH/Jehovah) rather than no other existing gods (elohim) - compare 1 Cor 8:5; Rev 4:11

JW

[brianbbs67]

What about Isaiah 46:9 JPS ...for I am God, and there is none else, I am divine, and there is none like Me.?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 53 by brianbbs67]

ISAIAH 44:6
"This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

ISAIAH 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God - ESV

ISAIAH 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me. KJV

HOSEA 13:4
Yet I am Yahweh your God from the land of Egypt; and you shall acknowledge no god but me, and besides me there is no savior - World English Bible

QUESTION: Since the bible both refers to pagan gods and says there is no God besides YHWH (Jehovah) is this a contradiction?

• No, "no other" (as found in Isaiah 43:10 and 45:5 and other scriptures) is highlighting that YHWH is "alone" in his position as the elohim deservjng of worship. The one personage that holds the position of supreme ruler of the universe (compare John 17:3). The expression "there is no other [God]" therefore should be understood in a relative sense not in the absolute (ie no other god that compares to YHWH/Jehovah) rather than no other existing gods (elohim) - compare 1 Cor 8:5; Rev 4:11

NO OTHER TO BE WORSHIPPED

The Israelites were commanded not to "know" (worship) or "acknowledge" (Hos 13:4) or any other God (elohim) but YHWH as being theirs (ie the one that saved them and the one to whom they must offer exclusive devotion). They were to recognize that the god (elohim) YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) was unique amongst all the other elohim, (ie that there was "none like him" (compare Isaiah 44:7a, 46:9b), none equal to him and none that is comparable to him in positon, might and dignity. The scriptures above then mean that no elohim, real or imaginary that should rightfully be recognized or acknowledged as the Creator and sovereign ruler of the universes. It is in this sense the bible uses the expression "only TRUE God", not that all other gods are false or not "real" but that no other gods (physical or divine) have the right to be identified as being in the the Supreme absolute position of power and excellence.

CONCLUSION: When the bible speaks about there being no other god but YHWH (or Him being the "only True God") it is not speaking in the absolute (that no other gods are real or exist) but in the relative sense, that relative to Him all other gods become insignificant.

JW






RELATE POSTS

How are we to understand EZEKIEL 28:1-19?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 840#907840

Why do some bibles vary between capital G- and a small g- for the word GOD?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 521#907521

Is the word G/god (elohim/theos) EXCLUSIVE to YHWH/Yahweh? (tigger2)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 565#907565

[JehovahsWitness]

DUPLICATE

[JehovahsWitness]

[JehovahsWitness]

SUMMARY

When we talk about a god in the scripture, we are talking about a divine spiritual being.

...pretty much all of the elohim had physical bodies.

♦ Are you suggesting that no elohim referred to in scripture had physical bodies?

No where in scripture is it good to be called a god and scripture not be talking about Jehovah, no where end of statement.

♦ Except when it is...

EXODUS 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - ERV

ALL other gods/Gods are false and do not exist. They are the imaginations of man...

...pretty much all of the elohim had physical bodies.

♦ If they had a physical body they obviously exist/ed outside of mere imagination.

♦ Was Moses imaginary because he was made "a god" (see above Ex 7:1)?




This series of questions continues below in post# 58 by JehovahsWitness

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post #57 by JehovahsWitness

My claim is that word pertains to ... God and god. True God, false god, ect.

♦ How is your point here any different than what Jehovah's Witnesses (tigger, OWH and myself JW) have been saying from the beginning?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 565#907565

The point here is that the capitalization we see in the English really doesn't not matter and that brings me to my earlier point that in Hebrew has no capitalization and it is context that lets us know which God/god we are talking about.

♦ Did any of us say any differently? You here make two points that merely state the obvious; something none of us are contesting (apart perhaps from the implication that capitalization has no impact in English texts).

If scripture is referring to something that is a god and is real [...] then we must be talking about Jehovah himself, because he is the only real god in existence.

♦ That is the point under debate and has yet to be proven.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 57 by JehovahsWitness]

Exodus 7:1. The Lord replied to Moses, "See, I place you in the role of God to Pharaoh, with your brother Aaron as your prophet." JPS

That should make it obvious that He didn't make Moses a god, just let him play a role. As all other human gods are imaginary.

God is saying, what are you complaining about Moses? I am letting you play god...

This is just one example of a repeated theme, especially in the Tanakh, about other gods not existing. It is also why I hold the Tanakh as superior for OT text. Besides the fact of less translating going on and the 3000 year understanding of the Hebrews, of which we(followers of Christ) are now a sect.

God made His Host. He did not make other gods to compete with Him. He did make some vessels to honor and others to dishonor. Satan is a fallen angel(messenger) who is our adversary. He is granted certain powers to God's purpose, but is never a god as you said earlier.