Bad Theology and Salvation

[liamconnor]

this thread was provoked by Elijah JOhn's stimulating question on why the Trinity was not a focus of Jesus' (and I add, any of the N.T. authors) if it is so important.

I commented there that the N.T. authors did not think salvation came through belief in the Trinity.

But this raises a question which deserves its own thread.


Suppose a person believes that Jesus' death atones for sins; that Jesus is God's chosen King/Messiah/Christ of the world. But...

This person does NOT believe that he is God (i.e. denies Trinity) though Jesus actually IS God (reality has it that God is Triune)

(or)

The person DOES believe God is Triune; but God in fact is NOT triune (Jesus is not God).


Can either person be "saved"?

[ttruscott]

Can either person be "saved"?

If elect, GOD can and will bring them to proper salvation...

[onewithhim]

this thread was provoked by Elijah JOhn's stimulating question on why the Trinity was not a focus of Jesus' (and I add, any of the N.T. authors) if it is so important.

I commented there that the N.T. authors did not think salvation came through belief in the Trinity.

But this raises a question which deserves its own thread.


Suppose a person believes that Jesus' death atones for sins; that Jesus is God's chosen King/Messiah/Christ of the world. But...

This person does NOT believe that he is God (i.e. denies Trinity) though Jesus actually IS God (reality has it that God is Triune)

(or)

The person DOES believe God is Triune; but God in fact is NOT triune (Jesus is not God).


Can either person be "saved"?

If a person keeps on insisting that Jesus is God and that God is triune, this person does not truly know God, and, in fact, Jesus said that to attain to everlasting life we must KNOW God and His Son. (John 17:3)

We can even see in that verse that Jesus is not God! He said that the FATHER is "the only true God," and he didn't include himself in being God. He is definitely another person, aside from "God." Jesus said we must know God AND Jesus Christ.

Examples like this are MANY throughout the Scriptures. Trinitarians can hold out only a handful of verses to supposedly back up their claims, and even those can be debunked.

We must know what the Bible says throughout the 66 books, by reading and meditating on it, rather than just taking the word of one's clergy.

A person who believes that God is a pagan trinity can be saved, once he changes his mind.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 28 by Divine Insight]

However, if the truth of reality is that our existence is temporary and we simply cease to exist when we die, I can't accept that. That, to me, is nothing to fear or even remotely worry about.

I have no trouble accepting reality as it is.

Because if this was the case - only this life - then I would prefer not to have been born at all.

At the moment people can live whit all the terrible things that are going on. Because most people on earth has hope of seeing there loveones again. Take that hope away from people and shit will happen.

Lets say a child is about to being tortered and killed and therefore needs your help.

What will you do?

How far would you go to save your child?

At the moment people are being hold back from taking drastic steps. But lets not fool ourself. The moment there is no hope of seeing our loveones again. That they no longer exist. Then we will be faced whit another reality.

Think about it...

How many cases of tortered people can we stand to watch before we say...enough is enough?

Why do we put up whit these things?

The gods can sit on their thrones and wait for us to change...do we have the same luxury? Can we wait for people to change? Are we gods?

If there are no gods, then what are we waiting for? A miracle? Tomorrow the world will be a better place? Maybe for you, but what about me? That is not your responsibility?

At the moment people are being tortered and killed and we are sitting here talking about doing the right thing...but what is the right thing to do? What can we do? We could blow the world apart and die whit a smile on our faces...because then we would have saved a lot of people from being tortered. We did not save them from death. That was not in our power. But we did save them from being tortered and killed by a maniac. And that is not so bad a deal. If we are going to die anyway then why not die knowing that we saved a lot of people from horrible things?

On the other hand...if we are eternal beings...then we can say...someday the world will be a better place for everybody.

What options do we have?

First of all, if I saw a child (or, really, anyone) being tortured I would intercede. If I knew that a child was inside a burning building I would go in and find him, no matter what would happen to me.

Secondly, I know that the world will be a better place someday because the Bible promises it. It's funny that all the religions emphasize an after-life in heaven or in being one with the universe or being God of your own planet, or some such ridiculousness. They totally miss what the Bible says about this earth being a paradise again and we can live forever on it. Religions teach something other than what is in the Bible!

The Bible says:

1) God created the earth specifically for humans to live on. (Genesis 1:28; 2:15; Isaiah 45:18; Psalm 115:16)

2) Not only did he create it for humans to live on, but it would be FOREVER. (Psalm 37:9,11 and verse 29)

3) Conditions will be perfect, with harmony between animals and humans, between humans and each other, there will be plenty to eat, and we will all have perfect health and each live in our own beautiful homes. (Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 9:7; Isaiah 65:21-25; Job 33:25; Isaiah 33:24; Psalm 72:16)

4) Jesus himself will rule over the earth for 1,000 years and his kind rule will bring everything back to where God intended it to be. (Revelation 20:4-6; I Corinthians 15:24-28)

5) Our loved ones will be RESURRECTED back to life on the earth. We will have them back as they once were, though without sicknesses and imperfections. Jesus said this would happen "in the last day," that is, his 1,000-year reign (John 5:28; John 6:40; Isaiah 35:5,6; Job 14:14,15)

How can anyone be oblivious to these verses? What have the churches gained by neglecting to teach them to their flocks? Isn't it something we might think about seriously?

[brianbbs67]

I had to stop reading this thread at page 2. Love God, love your neighbor , love your self so that you may love others. If you don't love yourself, you can never love anything. We here are all seeking God. Most. Seek Him. First.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 53 by onewithhim]

God created the earth specifically for humans to live on.

Yet most of the planet is ocean or provides an inhospitable environment for the majority of human inhabitants.

Not only did he create it for humans to live on, but it would be FOREVER.

The sun will destroy our planet in a few billion years, much less than forever.

Conditions will be perfect, with harmony between animals and humans, between humans and each other, there will be plenty to eat, and we will all have perfect health and each live in our own beautiful homes.

All life on the planet is locked in food chains where animals survive by eating other animals. Other than plants which are primary producers, that is how organisms obtain the energy they need for their life functions. It works, but it is far from perfect and there is no way around it.

Jesus himself will rule over the earth for 1,000 years and his kind rule will bring everything back to where God intended it to be.

What role does a ruler have? If the world is perfect and harmonious, there is no need for any ruler, including Jesus.

Our loved ones will be RESURRECTED back to life on the earth. We will have them back as they once were, though without sicknesses and imperfections.

Which version of "how they once were" will that be? My mother lived for 94 years and in that time she existed in many 'versions'. There was the young child, the teenager, the young woman, the slightly older woman who gave birth to me, the middle-aged woman while I was a young person, then the elderly woman who was beset by ailments but still independent and finally the elderly woman who needed constant personal care. Will my restored mother be the woman who existed before I was born but in her peak as a person? What about her parents, and their parents. The whole scenario is patently impossible. It is a fantasy constructed by people whose relationship to others is largely considered from a very ego-centric point of view.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 53 by onewithhim]

God created the earth specifically for humans to live on.

Yet most of the planet is ocean or provides an inhospitable environment for the majority of human inhabitants.

Not only did he create it for humans to live on, but it would be FOREVER.

The sun will destroy our planet in a few billion years, much less than forever.

Conditions will be perfect, with harmony between animals and humans, between humans and each other, there will be plenty to eat, and we will all have perfect health and each live in our own beautiful homes.

All life on the planet is locked in food chains where animals survive by eating other animals. Other than plants which are primary producers, that is how organisms obtain the energy they need for their life functions. It works, but it is far from perfect and there is no way around it.

Jesus himself will rule over the earth for 1,000 years and his kind rule will bring everything back to where God intended it to be.

What role does a ruler have? If the world is perfect and harmonious, there is no need for any ruler, including Jesus.

Our loved ones will be RESURRECTED back to life on the earth. We will have them back as they once were, though without sicknesses and imperfections.

Which version of "how they once were" will that be? My mother lived for 94 years and in that time she existed in many 'versions'. There was the young child, the teenager, the young woman, the slightly older woman who gave birth to me, the middle-aged woman while I was a young person, then the elderly woman who was beset by ailments but still independent and finally the elderly woman who needed constant personal care. Will my restored mother be the woman who existed before I was born but in her peak as a person? What about her parents, and their parents. The whole scenario is patently impossible. It is a fantasy constructed by people whose relationship to others is largely considered from a very ego-centric point of view.

Let me take your points one by one.

1) "Most of the planet provides an inhospitable environment..." If we really thought about it for a minute, we would have to admit that the planet is beautiful, even with the ruination that humans are causing in a large part of it. It is inhospitable in many places because of what humans have done. Mankind long ago decided they didn't want to listen to our Creator, but wanted to do things their own way. It is people who have made much of the earth inhospitable because of the mismanagement that they have assaulted the earth with. Would God have us living in congested, filthy cities where poverty and hunger are rampant? No. That is man's planning gone awry.

"They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own." (Deuteronomy 32:5)

Evil men will one day receive their just reward:

"The appointed time [will come] for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name [God's name], the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." (Revelation 11:18)

2) "The sun will destroy our planet." If you believe in God, and that he created the universe, why would you think he would allow our planet to be destroyed? If he created the sun, he has the power to keep it going forever.

"The earth remains forever." (Ecclesiastes 1:4)


3) We don't know how Jehovah will resolve the situation of animals eating other animals, but we believe that before the Flood animals didn't do that, and neither did humans eat animals. During the Millennial Reign, we feel that we will be vegetarians, and also the Bible says that "lions will eat straw like the bull." (Isaiah 65:25) God created everything.....he can control and manage everything. He will do so in his appointed time.

4) How does the world become harmonious? People have rejected God for thousands of years and have not been able to make anything harmonious and perfect. For the world to become perfect, it will take guidance from a kind and benevolent ruler. He will instruct humans on how to achieve harmony. A ruler doesn't need to be harsh and selfish, as all the rulers the earth has had up to this day have been. A ruler can be merely someone who, with love, guides people to make the perfect life for themselves.


5) The Resurrection......When I said "how they once were," I meant that you would recognize them because they would have their same features, though without old age and disfigurements. If Mom had blue eyes and brown hair, she will come back with blue eyes and brown hair. She will have the same personality (unless she was mentally ill), the same mannerisms. A human starts to go downhill, gradually, around the age of 30. We believe that people will be resurrected, if they died after the age of 30, back to their situation before the age of 30 (though without sickness and disability). If a child died, he will be resurrected as a child and then grow up until around the age of 30 and stop growing old at that point, but live on forever as young and healthy.

"Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor." (Job 33:25)

"And no resident will say, 'I am sick.' The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error." (Isaiah 33:24)


"Let me praise Jehovah; may I never forget all that he has done. He forgives all your errors and heals all your ailments; he reclaims your life from the pit [the grave] and crowns you with his loyal love and mercy. He satisfies you with good things all your life, so that your youth is renewed like that of an eagle. Jehovah acts with righteousness and justice for all who are oppressed." (Psalm 103:2-6)


This he will do in his appointed time, which we believe will be soon.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 56 by onewithhim]

1) "Most of the planet provides an inhospitable environment..." If we really thought about it for a minute, we would have to admit that the planet is beautiful, even with the ruination that humans are causing in a large part of it. It is inhospitable in many places because of what humans have done.

You are not addressing the actual point. Most of the planet is not hospitable to human habitation. it is either ocean, frozen, desert, elevated and so on. None of that is a consequence of human action. The planet is actually a gigantic ball of molten rock and metal with a thin skin cool enough to be solid and form land masses. You have to wonder why God created it that way. On the other hand we have a natural explanation that is also consistent with the formation of all planetary and stellar bodies in the universe.

2) "The sun will destroy our planet." If you believe in God, and that he created the universe, why would you think he would allow our planet to be destroyed? If he created the sun, he has the power to keep it going forever.

We have observed many stars in the universe and learned a lot about how they work and their life-cycles. In a few billion years our sun will become a red giant and destroy Earth. There is no getting around that. The authors of the biblical tales had no idea of any of that and were patently wrong in claiming the opposite.

3) We don't know how Jehovah will resolve the situation of animals eating other animals, but we believe that before the Flood animals didn't do that, and neither did humans eat animals.

Animals require energy to fuel their bodily processes. they evolved to gain that energy by consuming other animals. We are all part of that web of life. There was no great flood and animals did not magically change from herbivores to carnivores. You have to wonder why God would even allow that to happen.

4) How does the world become harmonious? People have rejected God for thousands of years and have not been able to make anything harmonious and perfect.

The lack of harmony is actually largely due to the acceptance of gods and the clashes that have arisen between conflicting beliefs.

For the world to become perfect, it will take guidance from a kind and benevolent ruler. He will instruct humans on how to achieve harmony. A ruler doesn't need to be harsh and selfish, as all the rulers the earth has had up to this day have been. A ruler can be merely someone who, with love, guides people to make the perfect life for themselves.

That is a pipe dream which completely ignores human nature.

5) The Resurrection......When I said "how they once were," I meant that you would recognize them because they would have their same features, though without old age and disfigurements. If Mom had blue eyes and brown hair, she will come back with blue eyes and brown hair. She will have the same personality (unless she was mentally ill), the same mannerisms. A human starts to go downhill, gradually, around the age of 30. We believe that people will be resurrected, if they died after the age of 30, back to their situation before the age of 30 (though without sickness and disability). If a child died, he will be resurrected as a child and then grow up until around the age of 30 and stop growing old at that point, but live on forever as young and healthy.

A comforting fairy tale but there is no basis of truth in any of it. The human imagination is a thing of wonder. Mine tells me that a world populated by 30 year olds forever would be unbearable.

This he will do in his appointed time, which we believe will be soon.

Humans will more likely become extinct than a long dead preacher will come back to the earth.

[2timothy316]

I had to stop reading this thread at page 2. Love God, love your neighbor , love your self so that you may love others. If you don't love yourself, you can never love anything. We here are all seeking God. Most. Seek Him. First.

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.�​—1 John 5:3.

"The one who says, “I have come to know him,� and yet does not observe his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in this person. But whoever does observe his word, in this person the love of God has truly been made perfect." 1 John 2:5

Those that practice a theology that they know who God is but doesn't observe His Word might feel that they love God. Yet from His view point He doesn't feel loved if people disobey. If He doesn't feel loved then it doesn't matter what we feel for Him. Those that don't obey are playing Satan's tune of self-absorption, there is no 3rd option.

"Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom." (1 Cor 6:9, 10)

If we see something on that list that we love more than God then it's a bad theology and the scripture is clear about where it puts them in relation to God. If there is something in the list that is not clear then it would be in our best interest to figure out exactly what that something is.

[brianbbs67]

I had to stop reading this thread at page 2. Love God, love your neighbor , love your self so that you may love others. If you don't love yourself, you can never love anything. We here are all seeking God. Most. Seek Him. First.

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.�​—1 John 5:3.

"The one who says, “I have come to know him,� and yet does not observe his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in this person. But whoever does observe his word, in this person the love of God has truly been made perfect." 1 John 2:5

Those that practice a theology that they know who God is but doesn't observe His Word might feel that they love God. Yet from His view point He doesn't feel loved if people disobey. If He doesn't feel loved then it doesn't matter what we feel for Him. Those that don't obey are playing Satan's tune of self-absorption, there is no 3rd option.

"Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom." (1 Cor 6:9, 10)

If we see something on that list that we love more than God then it's a bad theology and the scripture is clear about where it puts them in relation to God. If there is something in the list that is not clear then it would be in our best interest to figure out exactly what that something is.

Your right. What are God's commandments?

[2timothy316]

I had to stop reading this thread at page 2. Love God, love your neighbor , love your self so that you may love others. If you don't love yourself, you can never love anything. We here are all seeking God. Most. Seek Him. First.

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.�​—1 John 5:3.

"The one who says, “I have come to know him,� and yet does not observe his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in this person. But whoever does observe his word, in this person the love of God has truly been made perfect." 1 John 2:5

Those that practice a theology that they know who God is but doesn't observe His Word might feel that they love God. Yet from His view point He doesn't feel loved if people disobey. If He doesn't feel loved then it doesn't matter what we feel for Him. Those that don't obey are playing Satan's tune of self-absorption, there is no 3rd option.

"Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom." (1 Cor 6:9, 10)

If we see something on that list that we love more than God then it's a bad theology and the scripture is clear about where it puts them in relation to God. If there is something in the list that is not clear then it would be in our best interest to figure out exactly what that something is.

Your right. What are God's commandments?

Most commandments are in principle form. Thus not written down. This is a vastly different approach from the Mosaic Law.

The first commandment is to love God with our whole heart, mind and life (soul).
The second is to love ones neighbor as one's self.

Those two are the foundations of the Law of the Christ, which is a principled law. These cover a wide range of behaviors. No murdering, robbing people and many more actions we must avoid.

After those two here are some specific commandments.
We are not to forsake our meeting together as Christians. (Heb 10:25)
Make disciples and baptize people from among all nations. (Matt. 28:19)
We are not defile our bodies with things that can harm it. (2 Cor 7:1)
There are somethings from the old Laws that were kept. "Abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:20)
Obey secular authorities unless they try to keep us from God's commandments. (Titus 3:1, Acts 5:29)
We cannot hate our fellow Christians. (1 John 3:15)
We are to love our enemies. This means we can't harm anyone who is not our brother. (Luke 6:35)

There are a few other commandments but these are the ones I can think of off them top of my head. Yet it stands to reason why there are two different types of Law covenants are quite different from the other. The Mosaic Law tried to correct people through law on stone, ink, paper, and punishment. Just adding more laws will never reconcile a person to Jehovah God. Even today we see just adding more laws and trying to enforce them is not ridding the world of criminals. The crime rate might go down for awhile but there is always a recurrence. With written law with hundreds of rules there are always loopholes that people try to exploit. Thus bad things happen that are considered 'legal' but everyone knows its not just.

The Law of the Christ tries to appeal to correction of a person through love. To bring out the good that is already in the person to make it bigger, better, and in line with God's view of good. With a law based in principle there are no loopholes. The result of an action will speak for itself as to whether it was just or not. Does this make the old Law code useless? Nope. Now we can look at the old Law look at it from principled point of view. Look at the justice a law in the old code was trying to achieve.