Trinity

[Artiom8010]

Why Catholic Church say that The mystery of the Holy Trinity not impossibility to unravel. But I read one newspaper and found one internetsite where one man spoke that God is a Thought. Holy Spirit is Thinking. Christ is a Word or Action. Christ is a ultimate goal of contempliation of a thought. I think that is true.

[myth-one.com]

1) Two body types are described in the Bible -- natural and spiritual.

We both agree that item 1 is true. No takes back.

These scriptures teach
that at the resurrection,
we will be raised with a spiritual body,
not a natural body as you claim Jesus did.

Deceased Christians will be resurrected to everlasting spiritual life -- with spiritual bodies. What does that have to do with my claim 2?

2) Jesus was resurrected as a natural bodied man:

No, he did not.
Please provide scripture.

I did. Here it is again -- Jesus stating He was not resurrected as a spirit:

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

You quoted the same scripture verse and added:

Here Jesus claims that he is a man.

So you disagree with me that Jesus was resurrected as a man ("No, he did not"), while at the same time agreeing with me that Jesus was resurrected as a man ("Here Jesus claims that he is a man"). This is another occasion where I do not understand what you are stating. Do you? If so, please clarify.

One should wonder that if Jesus rose as a natural man,
why did the disciples think they "saw" a spirit?

Perhaps because they knew He had been executed three days ago!

Status: Item 2 needs clarification.

3) But mankind cannot inherit the Kingdom of God as natural bodies:

Who has claimed otherwise?

That has always been your claim -- that men are in Heaven.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (I Corinthians 15:50)

Agreed.

No takes back!

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Yes, and the way they "saw" him go into the clouds,
he will return the same way.
So if the man Christ Jesus died,(as you claim)
how could he return the same way?

Duh? They saw Him go into the clouds and He will descend through the clouds. But He will not be a man, He will be the spiritual Son of God.

Did they not watch him ascend to the sky?
Will he not be "seen" returning?

Are you claiming that a spiritual body cannot make itself be seen?

5)Jesus was resurrected as a human and later ascended into heaven. He had to have been changed into a spiritual being, because as stated above flesh and blood cannot enter there, and:

Is this what you call sound doctrine?

Sound doctrine and simple logic. And you already agreed that flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven -- and I claimed the "No Takes Back" prerogative!

Are you now saying that flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God?

Flesh and blood did not inherit the Kingdom of God.

But you keep claiming that Jesus entered Heaven as a man. Men have flesh and blood.

Jesus is the second man from heaven.
So if he had flesh and bone,
we will as well.

Then we will not. Christians will be resurrected as spiritual beings -- as the Bible claims.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Jesus had to be changed into a spirit to reenter Heaven:

Once again, is this what you call sound doctrine?

Absolutely! If it was not, you would be able to disprove it through the scriptures! But you have not been able to -- so it remains sound!

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

According to your interpretation logic,
being born of the flesh
would be just a piece of flesh
not a man.

So you please tell us how man is born -- since you claim the Bible is incorrect.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Jesus is the second man from heaven.
And he himself claimed that he was a man,
not a spirit as you claim.

Where did Jesus claim that He was a man in Heaven? He claimed He was resurrected as a man. And scripture says He was a man from Heaven. He was the Word in Heaven -- not a man. The Word was made flesh, so the Word was not flesh in Heaven.

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

The man Jesus Christ set the example by being the first man to be changed into a spiritual body!

You are comparing apples with oranges.
This verse applies to those of us
who will not taste death InTheFlesh.

No, it refers to all Christians; "... we shall all be changed." Just as Jesus was.

Not the case with Jesus.
After the resurrection,
we will not be changed again
as you claim happened to Jesus.

Christians alive at the resurrection will be changed and meet Jesus in the air -- exactly as Jesus was changed.

All mankind are born with the possibility of having two births. The first birth is a physical birth as man or woman, the second possible birth is being born of the Spirit into the Kingdom of God.

At the resurrection, (second birth)
Jesus claimed he had flesh and bone.

He was born as a 33 year old man at His resurrection?? Being born again means being born a second time as a spirit. He was not born of the spirit at His resurrection because, as He states, spirits do not have flesh and bones.

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Jesus was not born of the dust,
he's the 2nd man from heaven.

Jesus was born of the flesh as a man. Otherwise, He could not die for our sins.

At the resurrection,
we will be like him.

At the resurrection, we shall be like He is now!

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:5-7)

Jesus was born again after death with flesh and bone.

No, Jesus was resurrected with flesh, bone, blood, hands, hair, eyes, and a lot of other bodily items. He was resurrected with the same body in which He was entombed. It still had the three day old wounds.

Being born of water and of the Spirit is the second birth.

Being born of water is the first birth. Being born of the Spirit is the second birth. The water represents flesh and blood man and the spirit represents the spiritual.

Conclusion: The only way Jesus or any human (man or woman) can enter the Kingdom of God is by becoming a spirit!

Once again,
is this what you call biblical proof?

Absolutely!

You're the one trying to make the Son of God and Christians resurrected to everlasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven -- men and women. I assume you include women, even though you refer to the masculine gender only.

Well your assumption is incorrect.

I assumed you included women. You did not?

At the resurrection,
we will neither be male or female.
We will all become sons of God.

Sons? You mean all men? It's a men's club?

I have laid out scriptural sources for each of five steps (printed in RED above) which prove that Jesus was changed into a spiritual body before entering Heaven.

You did not prove your claim
that Jesus changed to a spirit.
None of the verses you quoted
say Jesus changed from man to spirit.

Taken together they did!

Actually, they say the opposite.

But you provide no proof of that statement. It's just your comment, as usual.

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

According to myth,
our mediator is dead.
We should all be thankful that myth is wrong.

Who died for your sins -- if not Jesus? If Jesus the man is not dead, then you have no Savior. All should be thankful that there was a man willing to die for our sins. That man was Jesus Christ. He will never again experience human physical life. His purpose for becoming a man has been completed!

[InTheFlesh]

Being born of water is the first birth. Being born of the Spirit is the second birth. The water represents flesh and blood man and the spirit represents the spiritual.

Not so.
You need to be born water and Spirit
for second birth.
The water represents
the washing by the word.

Isa.44
[3] For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Rev.22
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John.3
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Eph.5
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Mark.1
[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

myth-one.com wrote:
Conclusion: The only way Jesus or any human (man or woman) can enter the Kingdom of God is by becoming a spirit!

Quote:
Once again,
is this what you call biblical proof?

Absolutely!

lol
Another words,
you have none!

Sons? You mean all men? It's a men's club?

At the resurrection,
there is neither male or female.
We are one in Christ Jesus.
What's with the gender issue?

InTheFlesh wrote:
You did not prove your claim
that Jesus changed to a spirit.
None of the verses you quoted
say Jesus changed from man to spirit.

Taken together they did!

At least you're admitting
there is no verse that says it.

Who died for your sins -- if not Jesus?

Jesus died for my sins,
but then he rose again.
Haven't you heard?
This debate has been
about your false theory
that the man Christ Jesus
died again after the resurrection.
You have not shared ONE SINGLE VERSE
to back up this claim!

Matt.28
[6] He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Rom.8
[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
1Cor.15
[13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[14] And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.Col.3
[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

If Jesus the man is not dead, then you have no Savior.

The man Christ Jesus is alive
and has saved us from our sins.
This death/corruption that you speak of
post resurrection, is fantasy.

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

How is it that you preach Christ died permanent death after resurrection?

[InTheFlesh]

1) Two body types are described in the Bible -- natural and spiritual.
We both agree that item 1 is true. No takes back.

No need to take anything back.
First comes the natural, afterward the spiritual body.

Deceased Christians will be resurrected to everlasting spiritual life -- with spiritual bodies. What does that have to do with my claim 2?

Your claim applies to Jesus as well.
He's the firstborn from the dead.

2) Jesus was resurrected as a natural bodied man:

No, he did not.
Please provide scripture.

I did. Here it is again -- Jesus stating He was not resurrected as a spirit:

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

Here's where you go wrong.
We are debating body types, not being types.
Jesus did not change from man to spirit.

So you disagree with me that Jesus was resurrected as a man

I disagreed with you that he was raised with a natural body.
I didn't disagree that he was raised as a man.

while at the same time agreeing with me that Jesus was resurrected as a man

He was.

This is another occasion where I do not understand what you are stating. Do you? If so, please clarify.

You are confused
because you are under the false assumption
that a man will not have a spiritual body.
But the scriptures and Jesus himself teach otherwise.

Perhaps because they knew He had been executed three days ago!

Wrong.
Their reaction was due to him having a resurrected spiritual body!

That has always been your claim -- that men are in Heaven.

I have never claimed that a natural man entered heaven.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (I Corinthians 15:50)

Agreed.

No takes back!

Why would I have to take it back?
Again, flesh and blood DID NOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

Duh? They saw Him go into the clouds and He will descend through the clouds. But He will not be a man, He will be the spiritual Son of God.

Sorry to bust your bubble,
but the Son of God is a man.

Are you claiming that a spiritual body cannot make itself be seen?

The exact opposite.
How do you think Jesus appeared to them
with the doors being locked?

Are you now saying that flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God?

No.

But you keep claiming that Jesus entered Heaven as a man. Men have flesh and blood.

Please provide scripture
to back up this claim
that the spiritual body is raised with flesh and blood?

Then we will not. Christians will be resurrected as spiritual beings -- as the Bible claims.

So was Jesus, as the bible claims.

So you please tell us how man is born -- since you claim the Bible is incorrect.

Man needs to be born
of water and of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.

The man Jesus Christ set the example by being the first man to be changed into a spiritual body!

The man Christ Jesus did not change after the resurrection.
You have yet to support this fase assumption.

Jesus was born of the flesh as a man. Otherwise, He could not die for our sins.

He was not born of the flesh.
God was manifest InTheFlesh.
Big difference.
What was natural about the birth of Jesus?
Was he not born of the Holy Spirit?
Did Mary and Joseph have physical intercourse?
There was nothing natural about the birth of Jesus.
He came down from heaven.

At the resurrection, we shall be like He is now!

Agreed!

He was resurrected with the same body in which He was entombed. It still had the three day old wounds.

And the scriptures teach
that he did not return to corruption.
But according to you, he died again after the resurrection?

[Ankh]

Greetings Myth,
Thanks for your reply.

Because Jesus "poured out his life/soul" (the blood) he died in the flesh. But upon his resurrection he noted he was "flesh and bone"... why no mention of blood? Being that now "death has no more dominion over him" (Romans 6:9) he needed no blood to sustain him but was functioning by the Spirit, being that now he was a "life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45)

Since He was a "life-giving spirit," He also needed no flesh and bone!

You're right Myth... Jesus needed no flesh and bone since upon his resurrection he was now a "quickening spirit," ...

Can you quote one scripture which states that Jesus was resurrected as a "quickening spirit?"

Sure.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.� (1 Peter 3:18)

Jesus Himself claims that He was not a spirit upon His resurrection:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

If He was not a spirit, He could not be a "quickening spirit!" Was He wrong?

First off, Luke 24:39 needs to be read in its context. Jesus' statement that he was not a spirit (after his resurrection) relates back to verse 37...

"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (37) But they were terrified and affrightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them; Why are you troubled? and why do you thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is myself: handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have."

Evidently when Jesus said "a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have", he is speaking of a certain kind of "spirit," the kind of spirit that the disciples thought he might be. So what kind of "spirit" would this be? If we look at the word "spirit" (Gr. "pneuma") that is used elsewhere in Luke's gospel we can get an idea of what kind of "spirit" the disciples imagined they saw.

"And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit (pneuma) of an unclean devil..." (Luke 4:33)

"For he had commanded the unclean spirit {pneuma} to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven by the devil into the wilderness" (Luke 8:29)

"And as he was a yet coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit {pneuma}, and healed the child..." (Luke 9:42)

From what we can determine from above, a reference to " a spirit" frequently denoted a demonic spirit. The fact that the disciples were affrightened and had become terrified of Jesus' appearance also shows that they may have thought a demon stood before them. What other "spirit" would have made them so terrified?

So in light of what Jesus said in Luke 24:39 in regards to not being "a spirit," he was reasurring his disciples that he was no transparent demonic spirit whom they should fear. To prove this he manifested a physical body, just as angels had done in the past.
=====================================================================

Myth, Jesus states in John 14:26 this...

"But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit..."

Here Jesus identifies the "Comforter" as the "Holy Spirit." Now that Spirit was already here on earth, and Jesus makes this fact very obvious when he says in Matthew 12:28 this...

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, the the Kingdom of God is come upon you.

So was Jesus wrong, confused, or misquoted in John 16:7:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Neither of the above. For the "Comforter, the Holy Spirit" to be sent and to come unto the disciples was no difficult task... since the Spirit was already here. Did not Yahweh say... "Do not I fill heaven and earth"? (Jer, 23:24)
=====================================================================

The wages of sin is the second death -- not the "first.

Here Myth I am going to argue the opposite. The "wages of sin" are tied in with the "first death" of mankind. I say that because the whole human race is under condemnation because of the transgression of father Adam who upon his transgression introduced sin into the world and that sin brought death.

If all will live again after our first death, then is the first death really a death?

Yes. You seem to be missing the main point Myth... and that is that our initial death brought about because of father Adam has passed unto ALL men. And being that all mankind is under that Adamic condemnation, DEATH is the result for each of his posterity. Now, unless the Second Adam (Christ) had not come and paid the penalty for that one man's sin that resulted in that sin being passed unto ALL men, then each one of us would have remained eternally DEAD. So yes, the "wages of sin" is DEATH, and we see the results of that truth all around us every day, but the wonderful news is that Christ came and gave himself a ransom for ALL (1 Timothy 2:5-6), and that in Christ ALL shall be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22), for God his Father sent him to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14), not just to those who believe, but of ALL men (mankind) ~ (1 Timothy 4:10)

If the Second Coming occurs next year, and you ask one of the Apostles if he is dead, he will say no. If he is not dead after the resurrection, was he ever really dead?

Myth, is David with us today? Is Paul with us today? Is Peter with us today? No! And why is that? Because they are DEAD

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both DEAD and buried..." (Acts 2:29)

At the resurrection all the above mentioned will be made alive. Now if they are to be made ALIVE sometime in the future, then surely they are DEAD now. So yes, they would say no to being not dead at the resurrection. But again Myth, the point is this: they as well as us would have remained DEAD ~ "eternally DEAD" ~ had it not been for God senting His Son to taste DEATH for every man (Hebrews 2:9). Do you understand that?

This is why our first "death" is not called death in the scriptures, but sleep, slumber, or rest. If we were like cats with "nine lives," then our only true death would be our ninth death. Every natural body dies once:

Yes, I agree that death is called "sleep" in the scriptures. But like where many fall asleep and never awake again (in this life), mankind's would have been a everlasting sleep had not Jesus gave of his own sinless humanity in death and sacrifice for the life of the world.

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven... the bread that I give is my flesh, which I give for the life of the world" (John 6:51)

As a result death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned. And being that each of us have sinned, transgressed God's Holy Laws, the wages for that transgression is ~ DEATH. That "death" would have been "eternal death" had it not been for the ransom sacrifice of the lord Jesus Christ. This is "the wages of sin" that he died ONCE unto. He delivered us from this "eternal death" sentence. How do I know... cause there will be a resurrection for all.

Just suppose that you are correct and Jesus' sacrifice paid the wages of sin for all of mankind's first death. Since sin is always possibly, even in the Kingdom of Heaven, all of us would still be under the risk of sinning and dying in the future -- and we would have already received our "free pass." So there would never be a guarantee of everlasting life as the scripture promises:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

" ... He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11)

Myth, your quotation of Rev. 2:11 sums it all up... "He/she that OVERCOMETH shall not be hurt of the second death." By the free gift of God's grace (Eph 2:5) all people will have an opportunity in the 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ to develop an "incorruptible character", while yet being corruptible (the possibility of becoming corrupt, but not necessarily corrupt). Those in the Milennial reign who develop this "incorruptible character" will be the "Overcomers" and will thus then gain "everlasting life" and inherit the Kingdom (new heavens and earth) prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34), but the non overcomers who having the opportunity to develop an "incorruptible character" during the Millennium and failed due to wilful sin, will go into everlasting fire, thus the second death, for which there is no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26-27), being that Christ paid the wages of sin for man's initial death (first death) caused by father Adam, by the giving of his "life" (manhood) on behalf of sinful man.

The second death is the wages of sin and is permanent.

The "second death" will be for "wilful disobedience" but again, it is NOT the "wages of sin" for which Jesus died. He died ONCE unto sin, and that was the sin man inherited through father Adam's transgression in the garden (Romans 5:18-19).

Thus our first "death" is called sleep, slumber, or rest in the Bible. Rest in peace. The wages of death is not a rest period.

But thanks to our lord and Saviour Jesus Christ it is now a rest (sleeping) period. Had he not come and done the will of the Father, who so loved the world, we ALL would have faced an "endless death", period!

He/her who comes to this "second death" will be the result of "wilful disobedience" from which there is no more sacrifice. Once one is given the additional sentence of the second death, there is no sacrifice for such.

So all of us will perish in the second death -- believers and nonbelievers. It's only a matter of time because all have sinned in the past, and all will surely sin again, and the wages of sin would then be the second and permanent death.

And under this logic, it makes no difference how many "free passes" we might have. Even if we had a million "free pass" sacrificers, we would eventually end up at that last final and permanent true death -- thanks to our sinful nature, freedom of choice, and the wages of sin being death.

It's all futility!

Myth, I understand how very hard it is to unlearn error. To understand the truth one must remove from his/her mind all the "confusion" of Biblical and traditional human teachings in order to come to the Bible with ears willing to hear, with an honest and good heart, and with a willingness to truly understand it.

Have a wonderful day

Ankh

[myth-one.com]

Being born of water is the first birth. Being born of the Spirit is the second birth. The water represents flesh and blood man and the spirit represents the spiritual.

Not so.
You need to be born water and Spirit
for second birth.
The water represents
the washing by the word.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus gives him a straightforward answer. This is the definition of being born again:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Our first and obvious birth is a physical process involving water. We are composed of approximately 70% water and carried in water in the womb. This first birth gets us into the animal kingdom as Homo sapiens, or man. No other members of the animal kingdom may gain eternal life, as the process involves making a cognitive choice. The primary mode of operation of the other animals is instinctive. Thus, it should be obvious to anyone that to enter the Kingdom of God, one must first be born as a human being, and not some other animal.

The second birth, that of being born again, is clearly defined as a spiritual birth -- "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The Kingdom of God is composed exclusively of eternal spiritual beings. Man's goal is to gain membership in the Kingdom of God. It is a positive goal to attain something wonderful – life eternal; not a negative goal to avoid something terrible.

When referring to those to be born again of the Spirit, Jesus does not refer to them as men. He says, "so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Men do not have spiritual bodies! There are no natural or physical bodies in the Kingdom of Heaven. Once born of the Spirit, you no longer need your physical body. Being subject to physical laws, a physical body is a hindrance in the spiritual world. One cannot move as the wind with an attached physical body.

Nicodemus asked for additional explanation concerning spiritual rebirth:

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus refuses to answer his question directly. His reply is that Nicodemus would not understand heavenly matters:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jesus and the apostles have been teaching earthly matters and the Pharisees have not understood. If they cannot understand earthly teachings which are of their world, why should it be expected that they would understand heavenly matters of a different world? Therefore, Jesus does not answer His question. Sadly, this remains the situation two thousand years later. Man in general still does not understand the process of being born again!

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The first man Adam was made a living soul, or being, because he was part of the animal kingdom. That is, the first body any human has is that of a living, breathing being. The last Adam will be made a quickening spirit since he will live in the Kingdom of God. That is, the last body any former human can have will be an eternal spiritual body. Notice that "Adam" is identified as a "man" only when he is made as a living soul or being. When "made a quickening spirit" the entity is called only Adam. This is significant because at this point, Adam is no longer a man, or human being. The last Adam is made a quickening spirit which lives forever. Of course, any human's name can be substituted in the place of Adam. Flesh and blood, such as man, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Thus one must be born again as a spirit.

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." The answer is that once spiritual bodies are created, it's a done deal! They cannot be terminated. They are immortal! Therefore, that which is natural comes first, a human body. That human being may or may not inherit a spiritual body based on his choice regarding Jesus. God does not desire to create more immortal rebels! Jesus does not want workers who do not want Him!

These verses also negate the myth that men are born as an immortal soul living within a physical body. It specifically states that they are separate, and come in two stages. The natural body comes first and is then followed by the spiritual body. Deceased Christians are born again or changed into spiritual bodies when resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming.

Therefore, there are presently zero born again Christians in the entire world. Being born again is an actual event, not simply some emotion one experiences upon accepting Jesus as their Savior! Christians will be born a second time as a spirit, or born again.
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What's with the gender issue?

You have repeatedly incorrectly stated said there are "men" in Heaven. Now you correctly say there is no gender! That’s progress.

Who died for your sins -- if not Jesus?

Jesus died for my sins,
but then he rose again.
Haven't you heard?

Correct so far.

This debate has been
about your false theory
that the man Christ Jesus
died again after the resurrection.
You have not shared ONE SINGLE VERSE
to back up this claim!

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment for sinning is death and death is everlasting. For Jesus to pay the wages for mankind's sins, He had to die for all eternity.

If Jesus the man is not dead, then you have no Savior.

The man Christ Jesus is alive
and has saved us from our sins.

If the man Jesus Christ is alive, then He is not dead. But if Jesus is not dead, then how did He save anyone from their sins, because the wages of sin is everlasting death?

This death/corruption that you speak of
post resurrection, is fantasy.

The only fantasy here is that the man Jesus is both alive and dead.

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

The only body type which “dieth no more� is the spiritual body. Whether He is called the Son of God, the Word, the Christ, or Jesus, the being at God’s right side is a spiritual being – not a man.

[InTheFlesh]

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

The only body type which “dieth no more� is the spiritual body. Whether He is called the Son of God, the Word, the Christ, or Jesus, the being at God’s right side is a spiritual being – not a man.

Here is the root of your error.
This verse is crystal clear
that after the resurrection, Christ dieth no more.
Everything you have said to counter this claim
has been nothing but false assumptions.
I repeat...

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

[myth-one.com]

Can you quote one scripture which states that Jesus was resurrected as a "quickening spirit?"

Sure.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.� (1 Peter 3:18)

This does not state when He was "made alive in the Spirit." It certainly was not at His resurrection, because Jesus Himself claims that He was not a spirit at that time:

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

This speaks to all "kinds" of spirits. Whether demonic, angelic, Democratic, Republican, or Tea Party.
===================================================================

Myth, your quotation of Rev. 2:11 sums it all up... "He/she that OVERCOMETH shall not be hurt of the second death." By the free gift of God's grace (Eph 2:5) all people will have an opportunity in the 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ to develop an "incorruptible character", while yet being corruptible (the possibility of becoming corrupt, but not necessarily corrupt). Those in the Milennial reign who develop this "incorruptible character" will be the "Overcomers" and will thus then gain "everlasting life" and inherit the Kingdom (new heavens and earth) prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34), but the non overcomers who having the opportunity to develop an "incorruptible character" during the Millennium and failed due to wilful sin, will go into everlasting fire, thus the second death, for which there is no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26-27), being that Christ paid the wages of sin for man's initial death (first death) caused by father Adam, by the giving of his "life" (manhood) on behalf of sinful man.

For this scenario to work out, it seems that all dead humans would have to be resurrected at the Second Coming. But only deceased Christians are resurrected at the Second Coming:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Only these resurrected Christians will spend the thousand-year millennium with Christ:

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

Only then is the vast majority of humans resurrected:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

So all will not have an opportunity in the 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ to develop an "incorruptible character" -- as you claim!

Myth, I understand how very hard it is to unlearn error. To understand the truth one must remove from his/her mind all the "confusion" of Biblical and traditional human teachings in order to come to the Bible with ears willing to hear, with an honest and good heart, and with a willingness to truly understand it.

I agree, have you given that a fair chance?

[myth-one.com]

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

The only body type which “dieth no more� is the spiritual body. Whether He is called the Son of God, the Word, the Christ, or Jesus, the being at God’s right side is a spiritual being – not a man.

Here is the root of your error.
This verse is crystal clear
that after the resurrection, Christ dieth no more.
Everything you have said to counter this claim
has been nothing but false assumptions.

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

We have agreed that Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a man.

However, He cannot enter Heaven as a man because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

So what happened so that He could enter Heaven? The Bible tell us what will happen to Christians in an exactly similar situation.

At the Second Coming, deceased Christians will be resurrected from their graves as everlasting spiritual bodies into the Kingdom of God.

But what about Christians who are living at that time? They cannot enter the Kingdom of God as men and women. Their situation is exactly as that of Jesus was after His resurrection as a man from the tomb. So what will happen to Christians living at the time of the Second Coming? Will they die so that they can be resurrected from the grave?

No! Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

The scriptures state that these Christians will not "sleep" or die:

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

They are "born again" or changed into spirits from living bodies and enter the Kingdom of God. These relatively few Christians will never die.

Jesus only needed to become a spirit once. Twice would be redundant. So He was resurrected as a man into the earthly world of man, completed His work there, then was changed into a spirit as living Christians will be without the act of dying:

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

[InTheFlesh]

We have agreed that Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a man.

Yes, with an eternal body.

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

However, He cannot enter Heaven as a man because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Flesh and blood did not inherit the Kingdom of God.

So what happened so that He could enter Heaven?

Can you be more specific?

The Bible tell us what will happen to Christians in an exactly similar situation.

At the Second Coming, deceased Christians will be resurrected from their graves as everlasting spiritual bodies into the Kingdom of God.

Yes, just like Jesus did at his resurrection.
Now you're making sense.

But what about Christians who are living at that time? They cannot enter the Kingdom of God as men and women. Their situation is exactly as that of Jesus was after His resurrection as a man from the tomb. So what will happen to Christians living at the time of the Second Coming? Will they die so that they can be resurrected from the grave?

Not exactly the same situation is it?
You are comparing
one that has not died
to one that was raised from the dead.
How is that "exactly" the same situation?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)
The scriptures state that these Christians will not "sleep" or die:

Yes, that's why they are not in the exact situation you claim Jesus was in.

Jesus only needed to become a spirit once. Twice would be redundant.

Actually, you haven't proved that he became a spirit even once.
After the resurrection,
he claimed...

Luke.24
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

[myth-one.com]

We have agreed that Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a man.

Yes, with an eternal body.

No, we never agreed to that. There is no eternal bodied man. All humans are mortal or corruptible.

Rom.6
[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

However, He cannot enter Heaven as a man because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

Flesh and blood did not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ok, we agree that Jesus did not enter Heaven as a man.

So what happened so that He could enter Heaven?

Can you be more specific?

Yes. Since He could not enter Heaven in His manly resurrected state – what occurred so that He could enter Heaven?

The Bible tells us what will happen to Christians in an exactly similar situation.

At the Second Coming, deceased Christians will be resurrected from their graves as everlasting spiritual bodies into the Kingdom of God.

Yes, just like Jesus did at his resurrection.
Now you're making sense.

NO! You have already claimed above that Jesus was resurrected from the grave as a man. A man is not an everlasting spiritual body. Try to stay focused.

But what about Christians who are living at that time? They cannot enter the Kingdom of God as men and women. Their situation is exactly as that of Jesus was after His resurrection as a man from the tomb. So what will happen to Christians living at the time of the Second Coming? Will they die so that they can be resurrected from the grave?

Not exactly the same situation is it?
You are comparing
one that has not died
to one that was raised from the dead.
How is that "exactly" the same situation?

After His resurrection as a man, He is in the exact situation as Christians living at the time of the Second Coming. These Christians and Jesus are men needing to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The scriptures state that these Christians will not "sleep" or die:

Yes, that's why they are not in the exact situation you claim Jesus was in.

Both Christians alive at the Second Coming and Jesus are in the exact same situation at this point which we are discussing. They are living members of mankind which are seeking entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. And all will be changed into spiritual bodied beings and enter!

Jesus only needed to become a spirit once. Twice would be redundant.

Actually, you haven't proved that he became a spirit even once.

Granted it takes a rudimentary understanding of simple logic. But the scriptures do prove that Jesus became a spiritual being:

1. There are natural and spiritual beings.
2. Jesus was resurrected as a natural bodied being.
3. He entered Heaven

Natural bodies cannot inherit the spiritual world. Jesus did inherit that world. To do so, He had to become changed. The only possible change was from natural to spiritual.

Thus Jesus was changed to a spirit before entering Heaven.