Trinity

[Artiom8010]

Why Catholic Church say that The mystery of the Holy Trinity not impossibility to unravel. But I read one newspaper and found one internetsite where one man spoke that God is a Thought. Holy Spirit is Thinking. Christ is a Word or Action. Christ is a ultimate goal of contempliation of a thought. I think that is true.

[myth-one.com]

The Person of God is indivisible and He has no other in His class for He is alone and unique. He is a single divine Individual.

The term "God the Father" refers to God Himself and not a 'First Person' of a Trinity.

Well put on both statements!

But moving on to those who believe in Jesus. You have them entering the Kingdom of God as spirit infused incorruptible natural bodied men.

As of now, yes. But again, I'm willing to be corrected.

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Believers will be equal unto the angels in regards to immortality, possibly equal in regards to nature???

Jesus was responding to the question of who would a woman's husband be in the Heavenly world if she had been married in the Earthly world multiple times. His answer was that there is no marriage in Heaven. Why? Because we are equal to the angels and the angels never die. Thus there is no need for reproduction, no sex, and thus no marriage. (That realization hit me kinda hard!)

So Luke 20:36 says we will be equal unto the angels. We are the children of God and will have the characteristics of our Father. One of which is immortality. Another thing we will not do is marry.

I don't perceive them needing blood in order to sustain life. Since as Leviticus says...

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood:" (Leviticus 17:11)

But Leviticus says that life is in the blood. So no blood, no life. This is another fact that man did not realize until much later than it was written in Leviticus. Thus, the best doctors in the United States tried to cleanse George Washington of his bad blood.

A man is not going to live without blood. So if "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God," then there are no men or women there! Leviticus 17:11 supports Paul's statement to the Church at Corinth:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The "Holy Spirit" is simply God Himself. He is Holy (Lev. 11:44) and "Spirit" (John 4:24)

The Holy Spirit or Comforter was not sent to Christians until Jesus departed the earth. Shortly before His ascension to Heaven, Jesus informed His disciples:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19)

If God is the Holy Spirit, how could He be in Heaven and on the earth at the same moment?

...you have Jesus receiving some reward of the saved (???),

Those of mankind who never sin receive everlasting life.

Yes... then that would involve then the keeping of the commandments.

Yes, the wages of sin was death under the Old Testament Covenant. If one never sinned (like Jesus), they would not have to die.

If man is a living breathing creature (soul), then what is there left to separate from man when he dies?

Nothing... since again, man does NOT have an "immortal soul." A individual's next concious moment, after their first death (sleep), will be their resurrection.

That correct. So death is not a "separation" of something from the body. Separation is a consequence of death, in that those who suffer the second death are separated from everything as a result of being dead. Death is the absence of life.

[InTheFlesh]

The "Holy Spirit" is simply God Himself. He is Holy (Lev. 11:44) and "Spirit" (John 4:24)

The Holy Spirit or Comforter was not sent to Christians until Jesus departed the earth. Shortly before His ascension to Heaven, Jesus informed His disciples:

Jesus claims to be the Holy Comforter.

[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[20] For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus can be present
in our midst
because he is the Spirit of truth.

John.14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Why would the man Christ Jesus
claim to be the life
if he was going to face eternal death?

[myth-one.com]

Jesus claims to be the Holy Comforter.

But Jesus spoke the following to the apostles shortly after his resurrection:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

Are there two Comforters?

Why would the man Christ Jesus
claim to be the life
if he was going to face eternal death?

The only path to everlasting life under the Old Testament was to never sin. The wages of sin is death, and all sinned. So all mankind is headed for the second death.

Suppose some human could live a sinless life. He would not be under the death sentence. He could then give his life freely as a sacrifice for the others to free them from the death sentence imposed by the first covenant. Man would then no longer be liable under that first covenant. Our liability would be eliminated when the penalty was paid.

We could then enter into a new covenant with God in which the flaw in the original could be corrected. This is exactly what occurred when Jesus Christ came to earth as a human. He lived a sinless life, then sacrificed His life as punishment for our sins. Since His sacrifice made eternal life possible for us, the new requirement to attain eternal life under the New Testament became a belief in Jesus Christ and recognition of His sacrifice.

Since the time of Jesus' crucifixion, the only path to salvation is to believe in Jesus as one's Savior from sin:

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

So the only path to eternal life for mankind is through Jesus -- so Jesus can truthfully claim to be the way to life. He had to face eternal death as a man to pay the wages of our sins and become our Savior. If He ever lives again as a man, then He did not pay the wages for our sins.

It's simple.

[InTheFlesh]

Are there two Comforters?

There is only one. Jesus states:
John.14
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[myth-one.com]

True, but don't loose sight that the spiritual is also a man.

Where in the scripture is a man also a spiritual being?

The scripture calls that blasphemy. Blasphemy is man assuming to himself the rights or qualities of God:

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:31-33)

=====================================================================

... There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

There is a natural body and a spiritual body -- believe it or not, that is what the Bible states.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The first man Adam was made a living soul or natural man. The last Adam was made a spiritual body. There is absolutely no mention of the last Adam being a "man!"

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural body comes first, followed by the spiritual body for Christians.

The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The first man is earthy, the second "man" is Heavenly. The word "man" in the second usage is referring to a being of which the gender is unknown -- because there is no gender in the Kingdom of God.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Earthly (natural) bodies are earthy, heavenly (spiritual) bodies are spiritual.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

As Christians have borne the earthy natural image, we shall also bear the spiritual heavenly image.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Why must we be born again into the spiritual image of the heavenly world? That's the only way we can inherit the Kingdom of God, because corruption (natural bodies) cannot inherit everlasting life in the spiritual heavenly world!

At the resurrection,
we will have a spiritual body.

Yes, Christians will. But nonbelievers will be resurrected with natural bodies.

Just like Jesus when he was raised.

Wrong! Jesus claimed He was resurrected as a natural earthly man:

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus Christ said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. He had flesh and bone, so He was not a spirit upon His resurrection. He was a man. Do you think He was lying?

The bible is very clear
that first comes the natural body then the spiritual body,
but where does it teach that men will be changed to angels?

Man is an earthy natural body -- and angels are spiritual bodies.

Here are two verses which teach that men will be changed to angels:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The only body other than flesh and blood is a spiritual body:

... There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The angels live in the spiritual world, so mankind must be changed into spirits to be equal unto the angels.

[myth-one.com]

Are there two Comforters?

There is only one. Jesus states:
John.14
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

That verse does not state that Jesus is the Comforter!

Jesus spoke the following words to His disciples shortly before His ascension:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

If Jesus said He must leave before the Comforter can come to the disciples, and then said He will send the Comforter to them, the implication is that Jesus is not the being referred to as the Comforter.

[InTheFlesh]

True, but don't loose sight that the spiritual is also a man.

Where in the scripture is a man also a spiritual being?

The scripture calls that blasphemy. Blasphemy is man assuming to himself the rights or qualities of God:

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:31-33)

=====================================================================

In these verses,
the Jews are saying
that Jesus who is a man
was claiming to be God (spiritual being).
Are you accusing Jesus of blasphemy as well?
Or could he in fact be God (spiritual being) InTheFlesh?

... There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

There is a natural body and a spiritual body -- believe it or not, that is what the Bible states.

You just keep beating this dead horse!
But you don't realize these verses work against you.
These verses teach that there is both natural and spiritual "body".
The second man will have a "body".

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The first man Adam was made a living soul or natural man. The last Adam was made a spiritual body. There is absolutely no mention of the last Adam being a "man!"

What does Adam mean?
The last Adam?
There is no mention?
You are comical.
1Cor.15
[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The natural body comes first, followed by the spiritual body for Christians.[/quote]
Are you kidding us? lol
Who doesn't agree with this?
We are debating that there is a second body.

The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The first man is earthy, the second "man" is Heavenly. The word "man" in the second usage is referring to a being of which the gender is unknown -- because there is no gender in the Kingdom of God.

Trying to beat around the bush?
The first man.
The second man.
Basic stuff.

As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Earthly (natural) bodies are earthy, heavenly (spiritual) bodies are spiritual.

Wow, do you realize how many times you have mentioned this? lol
Yes, at the resurrection, we will be raised with a new body.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

As Christians have borne the earthy natural image, we shall also bear the spiritual heavenly image.

Yes, we will bear the image of the spiritual man from heaven.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Why must we be born again into the spiritual image of the heavenly world? That's the only way we can inherit the Kingdom of God, because corruption (natural bodies) cannot inherit everlasting life in the spiritual heavenly world!

But the flesh of Jesus did not see corruption.

At the resurrection,
we will have a spiritual body.

Yes, Christians will. But nonbelievers will be resurrected with natural bodies.

Just like Jesus when he was raised.

Wrong! Jesus claimed He was resurrected as a natural earthly man.

Wrong!
Jesus is the second man from heaven.
He is the living bread that came down from heaven.
Where does it say Jesus is earthly?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus Christ said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. He had flesh and bone, so He was not a spirit upon His resurrection. He was a man. Do you think He was lying?

No. I believe Jesus is a man.
Men do not get changed to spirits.
They are raised by the Spirit with a new body.

The bible is very clear
that first comes the natural body then the spiritual body,
but where does it teach that men will be changed to angels?

Man is an earthy natural body -- and angels are spiritual bodies.

Here are two verses which teach that men will be changed to angels:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The only body other than flesh and blood is a spiritual body:

Yes, we will be raised with flesh and bone.
Just like Jesus was.

... There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The angels live in the spiritual world, so mankind must be changed into spirits to be equal unto the angels.

The underlined, is opinion.

[InTheFlesh]

Where in the scripture is a man also a spiritual being?

Gal.6
[1] Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

[7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
[8] For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

[Ankh]

Good Morning Myth,
Thanks for your response.

The Person of God is indivisible and He has no other in His class for He is alone and unique. He is a single divine Individual.

The term "God the Father" refers to God Himself and not a 'First Person' of a Trinity.

Well put on both statements!

Thanks Myth

I don't perceive them needing blood in order to sustain life. Since as Leviticus says...

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood:" (Leviticus 17:11)

But Leviticus says that life is in the blood. So no blood, no life...

Leviticus 17:11 specifically says, the "life of the flesh" is in the blood. Yes Myth I agree the "blood is the life," but its the "life of the flesh.

Like in Isaiah 53:12 we read this...

"...because he hath poured out his soul {Nephesh ~ vitality} unto death."

"...for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28)

Because Jesus "poured out his life/soul" (the blood) he died in the flesh. But upon his resurrection he noted he was "flesh and bone"... why no mention of blood? Being that now "death has no more dominion over him" (Romans 6:9) he needed no blood to sustain him but was functioning by the Spirit, being that now he was a "life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45)

A man is not going to live without blood. So if "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God," then there are no men or women there! Leviticus 17:11 supports Paul's statement to the Church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God..."

Since its a "spiritual body" that believers will be raised with, like Jesus the prototype, they to will be living by the supernatural power (spirit) of God. Thus, no need for blood, for the life of the flesh is in the blood.

The "Holy Spirit" is simply God Himself. He is Holy (Lev. 11:44) and "Spirit" (John 4:24)

The Holy Spirit or Comforter was not sent to Christians until Jesus departed the earth. Shortly before His ascension to Heaven, Jesus informed His disciples:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (John 16:7)
"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." (Mark 16:19)

If God is the Holy Spirit, how could He be in Heaven and on the earth at the same moment?

Good question. God transcends things by the power (Spirit) of His nature. God is at the central point of the being of everything whatsoever because He is infinite and all other things are finite, so that He can totally dominate them all by His power (Spirit). And the first act of His domination is to hold them in existence, to keep them from being nothing.

"For in (through) Him we live, and move, and have our being (exitence)" (Acts 17:28a)

God is everywhere; that is He is in all things, because the effect of His power (Spirit) is upon all things.

"Do I not fill Heaven and earth?" (Jer. 23:24)

...you have Jesus receiving some reward of the saved (???),

Those of mankind who never sin receive everlasting life.

Yes... then that would involve then the keeping of the commandments.

Yes, the wages of sin was death under the Old Testament Covenant. If one never sinned (like Jesus), they would not have to die.

Correct. And being that Jesus was sinless, and thus would not taste of death, for the wages of sin is death, he could voluntarily lay his life (manhood) down for man, who is under the penalty of death cause of his sin. A "life" for a "life"

If man is a living breathing creature (soul), then what is there left to separate from man when he dies?

Nothing... since again, man does NOT have an "immortal soul." A individual's next concious moment, after their first death (sleep), will be their resurrection.

That correct. So death is not a "separation" of something from the body. Separation is a consequence of death, in that those who suffer the second death are separated from everything as a result of being dead. Death is the absence of life.

And man's "death" due to sin would not have been just a "sleep" but permanent, had not Jesus came and gave himself a ransom for man. Thus, a resurrection for all, both the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15). Those who face "the second death," will face a point of no return. Christ died ONCE for sin. (Romans 6:10)

Good day

Ankh

[myth-one.com]

The natural body comes first, followed by the spiritual body for Christians.

Are you kidding us? lol
Who doesn't agree with this?

You do not agree with that!

We are debating that there is a second body.

No, we agree there is a second body. I'm debating that the second body which Christians will receive is a totally "spiritual body" as the Bible states.

You on the other hand, are claiming the second body of resurrected Christians is some natural/spiritual hybrid body, because the Bible describes it as a body.

To your thinking, the word body implies some material content.

But a general definition of a body is the largest or main part of anything. A lake is a body of water, we sit in the body of a vehicle, a fuselage is the body of an airplane, a trunk is the body of a tree. All of those things are physical.

Are you saying that a spirit is not something -- because it is immaterial? If so, then there is no God because:

God is a Spirit: . . .

If God is a spirit, and God exists, then there is a spiritual body -- God!

Whenever we can understand what a spirit is (meaning God and the angels), at that time we can understand a body of spirit, or spiritual body, even though it is not flesh and blood or like any living thing we now know. Until that time we will not understand how that can be, only that it will be.

Until we know what God and the angels are, we cannot define or invision what we will become. All we can know is that we will become a spiritual body. Incredibly, it was written long ago that we would not know:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then, shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:9-12)

You have repeatedly stated that Jesus was resurrected and returned to heaven as a man, and that Christians will do likewise:

Yes, we will be raised with flesh and bone.
Just like Jesus was.

No we will not. Christians will be resurrected to everlasting life as spiritual bodies:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

And Jesus stated that a sprit hath not flesh and bone:

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

A spiritual body is a spirit:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

If Jesus was resurrected with flesh and bone, He was not resurrected as a spiritual body. If he was not a spiritual body, then He was resurrected as a natural body -- or a man. There are only two body types -- natural and spiritual. And He was resurrected with flesh, bone, blood, hair, and every other physical attribute of men!

And if He was resurrected as a physical body, He had to be changed, just as living Christians will be upon His return, to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as a spiritual body!