JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[JehovahsWitness]

None of this addresses the point I have made, in fact it totally ignores it.

You might like to re-read the post #391 (Link HERE)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 703#916703

[Tcg]

You might like to re-read the post #391 (Link HERE)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 703#916703

I have read it. Even after your fourth edit, it continues to not address my post.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 400 by Tcg]

Ok, I'll edit again and see if its more clear.

Here is the final edit
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 703#916703

If you have any feedback I will consider addressing that in a fresh post.

JW

[marco]

He didn't say, "Watch this in remembrance of me". He said, "Do this in remembrance of me."

That's a splendid observation but the verb, "do" covers a multiplicity of actions. If Jesus had made a funny face as he spoke, then the interpretation would be to repeat the fun. If he shared a glass of wine, the sharing was the thing to do. If he transformed bread into flesh then that was what was required, and presumably Christ offered the power with the request.

As it happens Christ was doing something, watched by his disciples; so the one certain ingredient is watching Christ perform some action, and it therefore seems reasonable that gathering together and watching that performance being re-enacted complies with Christ's command.

[onewithhim]

Jesus made the New Covenant for a Kingdom (ruling in heaven with him) with his 12 Apostles who were spirit-anointed by God. Then they went out and taught hundreds more that were present on the Day of Pentecost, 33 A.D., and who got spirit-anointed. We who simply observe at the Lord's Supper are not anointed to rule with Christ in heaven. We observe to show our appreciation for what Jesus did for all of mankind. Because of him we can live forever on the earth, just as God intended when he created it.

He has just explained in metaphoric language that the youngest is the leader and he himself is a servant. He gives them crowns and make sthem kings, metaphoricaly, just as he made himself a vine metaphorically. So why on earth would one suppose he is talking about an actual "kingdom"? And it is very dubious that Christ was crucified in 33AD, never mind the appearance of the Paraclete.


You are entitled to your rosy readings but let's remember they are mere interpretations, not facts taken from Scripture.

Yes, the vine was a metaphor, but all that he says about ruling with his Apostles within a real government is surely literal, because we have many passages in the Bible that speak of this government as one that will influence the whole world.

"For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder....His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace. He shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom: to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and forever." (Isaiah 9:6,7, New Catholic Edition)

"But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed...and it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." (Daniel 2:44, New Catholic Edition)

[onewithhim]

We who simply observe at the Lord's Supper are not anointed to rule with Christ in heaven. We observe to show our appreciation for what Jesus did for all of mankind.

You who simply observe the Lord's Supper aren't following Jesus' direction. He didn't say, "Watch this in remembrance of me". He said, "Do this in remembrance of me."

Yes, and he was speaking to those with whom he had just made a covenant for a kingdom---to rule with him in heaven. Only those who will rule in heaven are to partake of the emblems.

Tell me...why do you think that all the people who are saved---billions of them---will go to heaven to rule? What sense does that make? There's usually a relatively small number of people who rule over a vast constituency, isn't that true? No government needs billions of people to rule. When Jesus promised his Apostles a kingdom, he was telling them that they would be a part of this relatively small group of people who would rule over the entire earth. He mentioned that he had other sheep that were not part of their particular fold, but he would draw them also (John 10:16). He was referring to the great number of people who would not be ruling, but would be ruled over. All these people do not partake of the emblems at the Lord's Supper because they are only for the ones who will rule.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 391 by JehovahsWitness]

Since Jesus never said, "What I'm saying to you applies to all individuals throughout the rest of time that believe I'm the Messiah and i want all those people to eat and drink the bread and wine..."

Speaking to His apostles:


"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you."





Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yes, and for many centuries the command would be for those hearing and obeying to partake of the emblems, because the number would not be completed until the last days. It was imperative that the people who would reign in heaven should be witnessed to and taught the truth so they could help to make up the 144,000 anointed. That was the most important thing, and what Jesus had considered of first importance. After they were chosen and anointed, then the "other sheep" would be instructed as to their position in the scheme of things. They started to realize their earthly hope in the 1930s, pretty far along into the last days.

So Jesus' command was appropriate for those who would be coming into his "little flock" (Luke 12:32) for almost 2,000 years.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 391 by JehovahsWitness]

Since Jesus never said, "What I'm saying to you applies to all individuals throughout the rest of time that believe I'm the Messiah and i want all those people to eat and drink the bread and wine..."

Speaking to His apostles:


"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you."





Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I see you have some words in bold tam, did you have a POINT to make about how you have applied each of those bolded words? If so can you make your point in a few complete sentences so that I can consider addressing them.

Sure, it shows Christ saying the very thing that you claimed He never said.


He commanded His apostles to eat and to drink the bread and wine that mean His body and blood; and to keep doing that in remembrance of Him. He later told those same apostles to go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them (those disciples) to also obey everything that He had commanded them (the apostles). Everything necessarily includes eating and drinking the bread and wine that mean His body and blood.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 391 by JehovahsWitness]

Since Jesus never said, "What I'm saying to you applies to all individuals throughout the rest of time that believe I'm the Messiah and i want all those people to eat and drink the bread and wine..."

Speaking to His apostles:


"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you."





Peace to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yes, and for many centuries the command would be for those hearing and obeying to partake of the emblems, because the number would not be completed until the last days. It was imperative that the people who would reign in heaven should be witnessed to and taught the truth so they could help to make up the 144,000 anointed. That was the most important thing, and what Jesus had considered of first importance. After they were chosen and anointed, then the "other sheep" would be instructed as to their position in the scheme of things. They started to realize their earthly hope in the 1930s, pretty far along into the last days.

So Jesus' command was appropriate for those who would be coming into his "little flock" (Luke 12:32) for almost 2,000 years.

The reason "they started to realise" what you say in the 1930s and not before was what exactly?

[JehovahsWitness]

Since Jesus never said, "What I'm saying to you applies to all individuals throughout the rest of time that believe I'm the Messiah and i want all those people to eat and drink the bread and wine..."

"Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you."

Sure, it shows Christ saying the very thing that you claimed He never said.

They are not the same words.

Do you understand the difference between "saying" (ie you can find those exact words in that order in the bible and produce them as a direct quotation from Christ) and not saying something?

If I said "Jesus never said "Bundgy Jumping off the Sidney Bridge"

In order to "show Jesus saying the very thing I claim he never said", you will have to produce a scripture that reads

And Jesus said "Bundgy Jumbing off the Sidney Bridge"

Can you understand the above? Would you like me to explain it to you again?

If you think you can find a scripture which quotes Jesus as saying these exact words

"And The Lord Christ said " "What I'm saying to you applies to all individuals throughout the rest of time that believe I'm the Messiah and i want all those people to eat and drink the bread and wine...""

fine produce the scripture with those words in it in that exact order.

Otherwise my statement was completely accurate.








JW