The Trinity Who came first???

[muhammad rasullah]

Many discussion have been done about the trinity and the fundamental concept of who God is and how we should understand him to be. The christians say God is three in one Father, Son , and holy spirit. Over the years many have struggled including christians themselves with the concept of the trinity to the point that they have concluded that its a mystery of God. The basic struggle of this concept comes when we ask the question that if these three are one in unity being equal then which one came first? Was it the father? Was it Jesus? Or was it the holy spirit? To christians this may seem as a illogical question but do not laugh because to many the idea of three distinctly separate entities being one always existing from the beginning is very strange and hard to grasp. It is clearly stated in the gospels that jesus was dependent upon the father. Jesus prayed, Jesus did not come to do his will but his fathers and so on. So the topic to be discussed is who came first in the trinity? Please use evidence to support your claim!

P.S. I am not suggesting that someone or something brought God into being I am posing the question to simply Who was there in the beginning first? Who is recognized as the eternal?

[McCulloch]

What is the purpose of this post?

Beats me. Perhaps a reference to unsolved Publius Enigma.

It is the graphic from The Division Bell which was the final studio album by Pink Floyd, released in 1994. EMI concocted an Internet-based "puzzle" known as the Publius Enigma in connection with the album's release. Officially, it was never solved. Douglas Adams, the author of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series, chose the name of the album, being a friend of David Gilmour. The cover artwork, by long-time Pink Floyd collaborator Storm Thorgerson, shows two metal head sculptures sculpted by John Robertson, each over three metres tall and weighing 1500 kilograms. They were placed in a field in Cambridgeshire and photographed under all weather and lighting conditions over a two-week period. Ely Cathedral is visible in the background, as are lights (actually car headlights on poles), shown through the sculptures' mouths. The sculptures are now in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio.

[litewave]

May I add that the building between the two heads is the Cathedral Church of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Ely.

[Eph]

I accept that Jesus (pbuh) is one in purpose with God because he came to do God's will as all the prophet's did.

So if you dont believe in the trinity meaning the father being God, Jesus being God, and the holy spirit being God and all of them being one then you don't believe this verse from the bible referring to jesus.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Do you believe this is referring to jesus?

We are all created in the image of God...and, Genesis refers to multiple Gods when it says "...let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Who is us? It certainly implies there is more than one. Jesus was the first spirit begotten of our Heavenly Father, therefore making him the firstborn of every creature. Paul/Colossians was right on.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Do you believe this verse is referring to jesus and if not then who?
Do you believe Jesus created everything or did God?

It is referring to Jesus, who, as a spirit and in a pre-existent state, was given the stewardship and power to create the earth under the direction of his Heavenly Father and was referred to as a God. He and Heavenly Father (and the Holy Ghost for that matter) are perfectly aligned in purpose, not in substance.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And since you believe Jesus is not God then who do you believe Jesus is?

Jesus is the Son of God, sent into the world by our Heavenly Father to fulfull the Law of Moses, live a perfect life, establish the true gospel, atone for the sins of mankind and resurrect. Jesus is a God, not the same God as our Heavenly Father, who is Jesus's spirit/earthly father and our spirit father. By suffering for all mankind's sins, Jesus becomes the father of our salvation. Jesus is a God because his Heavenly Father gave him that power, for example the power to create the earth and the power over death.

Traditional concepts of the Trinity just confuse a simple concept, that they are single in purpose only. Just read the following where Jesus makes a direct analogy:

John 17: 11, 21-22
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
• • •
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

It seems that we are to be one in the same sense that Jesus is to the Father. Would you read this passage any differently?

Where does the Holy Ghost fit in? Jesus speaks directly of this:

John 14: 26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15: 26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

In these verses all three are mentioned with separate administrative roles. Any other interpretation is really quite confusing.

[muhammad rasullah]

I accept that Jesus (pbuh) is one in purpose with God because he came to do God's will as all the prophet's did.

So if you dont believe in the trinity meaning the father being God, Jesus being God, and the holy spirit being God and all of them being one then you don't believe this verse from the bible referring to jesus.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Do you believe this is referring to jesus?

We are all created in the image of God...and, Genesis refers to multiple Gods when it says "...let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Who is us? It certainly implies there is more than one. Jesus was the first spirit begotten of our Heavenly Father, therefore making him the firstborn of every creature. Paul/Colossians was right on.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Do you believe this verse is referring to jesus and if not then who?
Do you believe Jesus created everything or did God?

It is referring to Jesus, who, as a spirit and in a pre-existent state, was given the stewardship and power to create the earth under the direction of his Heavenly Father and was referred to as a God. He and Heavenly Father (and the Holy Ghost for that matter) are perfectly aligned in purpose, not in substance.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And since you believe Jesus is not God then who do you believe Jesus is?

Jesus is the Son of God, sent into the world by our Heavenly Father to fulfull the Law of Moses, live a perfect life, establish the true gospel, atone for the sins of mankind and resurrect. Jesus is a God, not the same God as our Heavenly Father, who is Jesus's spirit/earthly father and our spirit father. By suffering for all mankind's sins, Jesus becomes the father of our salvation. Jesus is a God because his Heavenly Father gave him that power, for example the power to create the earth and the power over death.

Traditional concepts of the Trinity just confuse a simple concept, that they are single in purpose only. Just read the following where Jesus makes a direct analogy:

John 17: 11, 21-22
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
• • •
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

It seems that we are to be one in the same sense that Jesus is to the Father. Would you read this passage any differently?

Where does the Holy Ghost fit in? Jesus speaks directly of this:

John 14: 26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15: 26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

In these verses all three are mentioned with separate administrative roles. Any other interpretation is really quite confusing.

This us in genesis does not refer to multiple Gods. This "Us" in the greek is used and interpreted the same way it is in the arabic in the quran when it says "We". It is a form of one of the plurals in the greek which is one of respect as with the "royal we" it is used for example when a king or a queen speaks of themselves as sovereign. It does not refer to more than one.

Jesus was the first spirit begotten of our Heavenly Father, therefore making him the firstborn of every creature. Paul/Colossians was right on.

But I thought that jesus was God? So god was brought into existence?

It is referring to Jesus, who, as a spirit and in a pre-existent state, was given the stewardship and power to create the earth under the direction of his Heavenly Father and was referred to as a God.

If Jesus was given anything then he can't be God or referred to as such. God is all powerful he has everything in his power and control. Who can give God something he already has? How can God be under the direction of anyone?

Jesus is the Son of God,

and was referred to as a God.

Which one is it? Contradiction....

Jesus is a God because his Heavenly Father gave him that power,

How can an All powerful God be given power? Who can give God something he already has?
If Jesus is God then he is All powerful but if the father is God then he is All powerful. Therefore the All powerful cannot be given any power to do anything if he already has it.

John 14: 26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The comforter is not the holy ghost or spirit.

Jesus said he would send the comforter. So how can he send something which was already there.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

This holy ghost was there before jesus even came so how can he send him?

[McCulloch]

This us in genesis does not refer to multiple Gods. This "Us" in the greek is used and interpreted the same way it is in the arabic in the quran when it says "We". It is a form of one of the plurals in the greek which is one of respect as with the "royal we" it is used for example when a king or a queen speaks of themselves as sovereign. It does not refer to more than one.

That sounds very reasonable. But many reasonable things are not true. Do you have any evidence that this kind of royal we was in use both by the ancient Greeks and the ancient Hebrews?

Jesus was the first spirit begotten of our Heavenly Father, therefore making him the firstborn of every creature. Paul/Colossians was right on.

But I thought that Jesus was God? So god was brought into existence?

This is where the religious game of word redefinition is played. In normal language the word begotten means to generate or to cause to exist. And firstborn means first born. But in the mystical language of the Christian religion, the Son is eternally begotten. I don't quite know what that means, but theologians have spent a lot of time, effort and blood (literally) debating and evaluating this, so it must be important.

It is referring to Jesus, who, as a spirit and in a pre-existent state, was given the stewardship and power to create the earth under the direction of his Heavenly Father and was referred to as a God.

If Jesus was given anything then he can't be God or referred to as such. God is all powerful he has everything in his power and control. Who can give God something he already has? How can God be under the direction of anyone?

I agree with the objection made by Muhammad Rasullah. I would add that by using the expression a God you imply that God is not one. If Jesus is a God then there is more than one God. Is Christian Trinity just thinly veiled polytheism?

Jesus is the Son of God,

and was referred to as a God.

Which one is it? Contradiction....

Watch the syntax carefully.
The son of a human is a human.
This implies that there are more than one human and that can have parental relationships.
Malia Obama is a daughter of Barack Obama.
This implies Barack Obama has a parental relationship with the specific human named, they are two separate humans.
The son of a God is a God.
This implies that there are more than one God and that they can have parental relationships.
Jesus is the Son of God.
This implies that God has a parental relationship with Jesus. They are two separate beings, not one.
Eph, as Muhammad Rasullah points out, your trinitarian language leads to semantic contradictions.

[InTheFlesh]

Gen.1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Jesus is God!

John.14
[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus is God!

Exod.3
[14] And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John.8
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself,

Why do you think the Jews were trying to stone him?
It was because he was claiming to be God.

John.5
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus is God!

John.5
[46] For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Moses wrote about God,
when did he write about Jesus?
Jesus is clearly claiming to be God.

Isa.9
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus is the everlasting Father and God is his father,
doesn't that make God our Grandfather?
I thought God was our Father
wait, Jesus is our Father?
How many Fathers do we have?

Jesus is both son of man
and Son of God.
The son of man had an earthly mother Mary
and he was the son of Joseph.
The Son of God has no father or mother.
He is eternal.

Melchizedek is a type of the Son of God!

Heb.7
[3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

The Son of God is our heavenly Father!

John.1
[45] Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

When did Moses write of Jesus?

I could go on and on,
but the Old and New Testament agree that there is only ONE God.
Jesus is Lord!

Pss.18
[31] For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

1Cor.16
[22] If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

[Goat]

This us in genesis does not refer to multiple Gods. This "Us" in the greek is used and interpreted the same way it is in the arabic in the quran when it says "We". It is a form of one of the plurals in the greek which is one of respect as with the "royal we" it is used for example when a king or a queen speaks of themselves as sovereign. It does not refer to more than one.

That sounds very reasonable. But many reasonable things are not true. Do you have any evidence that this kind of royal we was in use both by the ancient Greeks and the ancient Hebrews?

.

It has to do with the verb that follows the plural. If the verb that follows , such as is done in 'In the beginning, God created', the verb 'created' is in singular format... but 'elohim' is plural.

In another part of Genesis, Moses was called 'Eolohim' over Arron. That did not mean there was more than one Moses, but rather the royal 'lord' , as in magnified importance.

[Confused]

Many discussion have been done about the trinity and the fundamental concept of who God is and how we should understand him to be. The christians say God is three in one Father, Son , and holy spirit. Over the years many have struggled including christians themselves with the concept of the trinity to the point that they have concluded that its a mystery of God. The basic struggle of this concept comes when we ask the question that if these three are one in unity being equal then which one came first? Was it the father? Was it Jesus? Or was it the holy spirit? To christians this may seem as a illogical question but do not laugh because to many the idea of three distinctly separate entities being one always existing from the beginning is very strange and hard to grasp. It is clearly stated in the gospels that jesus was dependent upon the father. Jesus prayed, Jesus did not come to do his will but his fathers and so on. So the topic to be discussed is who came first in the trinity? Please use evidence to support your claim!

P.S. I am not suggesting that someone or something brought God into being I am posing the question to simply Who was there in the beginning first? Who is recognized as the eternal?

I am not sure you can use anything other than scripture to evaluate this question as it is about the interpretation of scripture itself so I am moving this to the Theology Forum. If you think there is another place it might better be suited, please PM myself or another moderator.

[muhammad rasullah]

Gen.1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Jesus is God!

John.14
[7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus is God!

Exod.3
[14] And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John.8
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself,

Why do you think the Jews were trying to stone him?
It was because he was claiming to be God.

John.5
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus is God!

John.5
[46] For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Moses wrote about God,
when did he write about Jesus?
Jesus is clearly claiming to be God.

Isa.9
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus is the everlasting Father and God is his father,
doesn't that make God our Grandfather?
I thought God was our Father
wait, Jesus is our Father?
How many Fathers do we have?

Jesus is both son of man
and Son of God.
The son of man had an earthly mother Mary
and he was the son of Joseph.
The Son of God has no father or mother.
He is eternal.

Melchizedek is a type of the Son of God!

Heb.7
[3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

The Son of God is our heavenly Father!

John.1
[45] Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

When did Moses write of Jesus?

I could go on and on,
but the Old and New Testament agree that there is only ONE God.
Jesus is Lord!

Pss.18
[31] For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

1Cor.16
[22] If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

So let me get this straight
In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God?
What does it mean to say God was with God how can God be with himself?
And then God was made flesh and this God in the flesh is Jesus. So the people have seen God...This is in total contradiction with what Jesus himself has said
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

The disciples where looking at Jesus and hearing him speak.

58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.[/b

I am what?

Jesus is God!
But Jesus was sent by God:
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jesus also said John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

We have already confirmed that Jesus was sent by God. Jesus then says that the one who is sent is not greater than the one who sent him.
Is Jesus the Father?
No every christian will say that Jesus is not the father this is a fact. When a person mentions the trinity they say in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. It is never Jesus mentioned first or the holy spirit it must ever be Father, son and holy spirit. What did Jesus say about himself concerning the Father:
john 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jesus said the Father is greater than I! He also said: John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

My father is greater than all is what Jesus said. So Jesus is not greater than the father and the Father is greater than Jesus. Jesus can't be God!
God is all knowing. Is Jesus all knowing?
No! Jesus said Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Only the Father knows when the hour will be not Jesus.
How is he God?

[byofrcs]

.......
How is he God?

Do the names of Allah mean that there are many Allah or that there are many aspects to Allah ?

Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are all interfaces to the one God. Therefore God came first and the trinity was fabricated around it. The wording of the bible leaves a lot to be desired - like the Quran really.