A QUESTION FOR ANYONE WHO HOLDS TO FREE WILL UNTO SALVATION

[Eddie Ramos]

How is it possible for someone to think they are truly saved (based on their free will), but truly not be saved at all?

Proverbs 30:12 (KJV 1900)
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes,
And yet is not washed from their filthiness.

Matthew 7:22–23 (KJV 1900)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Acts 8:13 (KJV 1900)
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 8:21–23 (KJV 1900)
Thou (Simon) hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

[onewithhim]

Jesus Christ stated:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Onewithhim then wrote that believing is "necessary but insufficient unless followed by good works."

I'll have to agree with Jesus, that whosoever believeth will have everlasting life.

You insist on ignoring Jesus' own words. I can't understand that.

No, Jesus said that "whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I believe what Jesus said!

But you claim one must believe in Jesus and do good works. "Believing must be followed by good works" were your exact words.

So you are the one defining believing alone as Jesus claims, to be insufficient for salvation!

Jesus said that he who DOES the will of his Father will enter the Kingdom. (Matthew 7:21)

OK. So that verse does not state that good works must be done to gain everlasting life.

"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matthew 5:16)

Nor that verse.

"He [God] will render to each one according to his works." (Romans 2:6)

Nor that verse.

"A certain one will say: 'You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith BY my works.' You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. Do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is dead?" (James 2:18-20)

OK. Faith apart from works profits no one but that believer, who will receive everlasting life.

<====================================>

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . (Acts 16:30-31)

The word "works" is in neither of the verses which inform us how to gain everlasting life.

So if what you are saying is true, anyone who believes will have everlasting life, right? Do the demons gain everlasting life?

Any human who believes will gain everlasting spiritual bodied life at or after the Second Coming.

Demons, devils, and angels were created with everlasting spiritual bodied life. There is no need for them to gain another everlasting life. The spiritual body that they have will last forever and ever.

The scripture that you keep quoting (without reference to any others) doesn't say that it is only men who will have eternal life if they believe. So your argument falls flat there. If all you need for life is to believe, then the demons also will have eternal life. That is not possible because the Devil and his demons are to be destroyed, and that means eternal DEATH. Not life. So to believe means that one acts in accordance with his faith, not just to believe without any works. Satan and his demons certainly believe, but they don't act according to how God and Jesus have instructed us to act. They will not have eternal life.

"He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)

[myth-one.com]

The scripture that you keep quoting (without reference to any others) doesn't say that it is only men who will have eternal life if they believe. So your argument falls flat there.

Can you explain what you are talking about??

If all you need for life is to believe, then the demons also will have eternal life.

The devils and demons were created as immortal spiritual bodied beings. They already have eternal life. Everlasting spiritual bodies is what mankind hopes to gain by believing in Jesus as their Savior. Upon being born of the Spirit and receiving an immortal spiritual body, we will have become equal unto God and the angels and devils in regards to longevity!

That is not possible because the Devil and his demons are to be destroyed, and that means eternal DEATH. Not life.

They will lose the positions of power to which they were given. The devil, for example, was given power over the earth. Also, the Bible states that spiritual bodied beings can be restrained. The devil, for example, will be restrained forever in the lake of fire. God cannot kill the devil because God created the devil as immortal, and God cannot lie. If He says that spirits are immortal, then HE cannot kill them. He can prevent humans from becoming a spirit by removing their name from the Book of Life. That prevents them from being born of the Spirit.

So to believe means that one acts in accordance with his faith, not just to believe without any works.

Believe means believe. There is no believe and .... anything. Or believe, but do yadda, yadda, yadda also.

It's in your Bible.

Satan and his demons certainly believe, but they don't act according to how God and Jesus have instructed us to act. They will not have eternal life.

The God inspired scriptures state otherwise -- but it's futile to quote it again to you. Perhaps you should read it for yourself.

"He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)

This refers to mankind only. Men and women who believe in Christ will be born again of the Spirit as spirits at or after the Second Coming. That is when they gain everlasting life. They were born of the flesh as humans, and those who believe in Jesus are born a second time of the Spirit. And humans born of the Spirit are spirits. And spiritual beings are immortal. It's all there in your Bible!

[onewithhim]

The scripture that you keep quoting (without reference to any others) doesn't say that it is only men who will have eternal life if they believe. So your argument falls flat there.

Can you explain what you are talking about??

If all you need for life is to believe, then the demons also will have eternal life.

The devils and demons were created as immortal spiritual bodied beings. They already have eternal life. Everlasting spiritual bodies is what mankind hopes to gain by believing in Jesus as their Savior. Upon being born of the Spirit and receiving an immortal spiritual body, we will have become equal unto God and the angels and devils in regards to longevity!

That is not possible because the Devil and his demons are to be destroyed, and that means eternal DEATH. Not life.

They will lose the positions of power to which they were given. The devil, for example, was given power over the earth. Also, the Bible states that spiritual bodied beings can be restrained. The devil, for example, will be restrained forever in the lake of fire. God cannot kill the devil because God created the devil as immortal, and God cannot lie. If He says that spirits are immortal, then HE cannot kill them. He can prevent humans from becoming a spirit by removing their name from the Book of Life. That prevents them from being born of the Spirit.

So to believe means that one acts in accordance with his faith, not just to believe without any works.

Believe means believe. There is no believe and .... anything. Or believe, but do yadda, yadda, yadda also.

It's in your Bible.

Satan and his demons certainly believe, but they don't act according to how God and Jesus have instructed us to act. They will not have eternal life.

The God inspired scriptures state otherwise -- but it's futile to quote it again to you. Perhaps you should read it for yourself.

"He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36)

This refers to mankind only. Men and women who believe in Christ will be born again of the Spirit as spirits at or after the Second Coming. That is when they gain everlasting life. They were born of the flesh as humans, and those who believe in Jesus are born a second time of the Spirit. And humans born of the Spirit are spirits. And spiritual beings are immortal. It's all there in your Bible!

You know it is not. I have shown you that the demons cannot be immortal because the Bible says that at the time Paul wrote to Timothy only Jesus was immortal. Only Jesus. So it can be seen that God didn't create spirit beings to be immortal.

"[Jesus] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light..." (I Timothy 6:15,16)

[myth-one.com]

I have shown you that the demons cannot be immortal because the Bible says that at the time Paul wrote to Timothy only Jesus was immortal. Only Jesus. So it can be seen that God didn't create spirit beings to be immortal.

How quickly you forget!

Speaking about Jesus, Timothy wrote:

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is the only human to ever gain an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant!

The wages of sin is death, He never sinned, thus His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting life under that covenant. He was the only name in the Book of Life before the New Testament Covenant, thus He only hath immortality!

It's His just inheritance, and under the New Testament Covenant He offers it as a free gift to all who believe in Him as their Savior. Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ and sin no longer controls our salvation.

No man is immortal. Jesus has an inheritance of everlasting life awaiting Him.

Anyways, that's what the Bible states.

And the demons are immortal.

[onewithhim]

I have shown you that the demons cannot be immortal because the Bible says that at the time Paul wrote to Timothy only Jesus was immortal. Only Jesus. So it can be seen that God didn't create spirit beings to be immortal.

How quickly you forget!

Speaking about Jesus, Timothy wrote:

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is the only human to ever gain an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant!

The wages of sin is death, He never sinned, thus His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting life under that covenant. He was the only name in the Book of Life before the New Testament Covenant, thus He only hath immortality!

It's His just inheritance, and under the New Testament Covenant He offers it as a free gift to all who believe in Him as their Savior. Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ and sin no longer controls our salvation.

No man is immortal. Jesus has an inheritance of everlasting life awaiting Him.

Anyways, that's what the Bible states.

And the demons are immortal.

I'm sorry but you are the one who quickly forgets! You said yourself that Jesus is the only one---human or spirit---that has had immortality. That is what the Bible states, clearly. (I Timothy 6:16) The demons are not immortal because they are destined now to die. The wages of sin is DEATH. Not life in some other realm.

[myth-one.com]

I have shown you that the demons cannot be immortal because the Bible says that at the time Paul wrote to Timothy only Jesus was immortal. Only Jesus. So it can be seen that God didn't create spirit beings to be immortal.

How quickly you forget!

Speaking about Jesus, Timothy wrote:

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is the only human to ever gain an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant!

The wages of sin is death, He never sinned, thus His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting life under that covenant. He was the only name in the Book of Life before the New Testament Covenant, thus He only hath immortality!

It's His just inheritance, and under the New Testament Covenant He offers it as a free gift to all who believe in Him as their Savior. Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ and sin no longer controls our salvation.

No man is immortal. Jesus has an inheritance of everlasting life awaiting Him.

Anyways, that's what the Bible states.

And the demons are immortal.

I'm sorry but you are the one who quickly forgets! You said yourself that Jesus is the only one---human or spirit---that has had immortality.

No, I did not say that. Pay close attention:

Jesus is an heir to immortality!! He became an heir under the original covenant between God and the Israelites by living a sinless human life under that Covenant.

Here it is again, for the next time:

Jesus is an heir to immortality!! He became an heir under the original covenant between God and the Israelites by living a sinless human life under that Covenant.

And all spirits are immortal.

<=======================================>

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

How do you suppose that human believers can be transformed into beings which live forever?

[onewithhim]

I have shown you that the demons cannot be immortal because the Bible says that at the time Paul wrote to Timothy only Jesus was immortal. Only Jesus. So it can be seen that God didn't create spirit beings to be immortal.

How quickly you forget!

Speaking about Jesus, Timothy wrote:

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is the only human to ever gain an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant!

The wages of sin is death, He never sinned, thus His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting life under that covenant. He was the only name in the Book of Life before the New Testament Covenant, thus He only hath immortality!

It's His just inheritance, and under the New Testament Covenant He offers it as a free gift to all who believe in Him as their Savior. Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ and sin no longer controls our salvation.

No man is immortal. Jesus has an inheritance of everlasting life awaiting Him.

Anyways, that's what the Bible states.

And the demons are immortal.

I'm sorry but you are the one who quickly forgets! You said yourself that Jesus is the only one---human or spirit---that has had immortality.

No, I did not say that. Pay close attention:

Jesus is an heir to immortality!! He became an heir under the original covenant between God and the Israelites by living a sinless human life under that Covenant.

Here it is again, for the next time:

Jesus is an heir to immortality!! He became an heir under the original covenant between God and the Israelites by living a sinless human life under that Covenant.

And all spirits are immortal.

<=======================================>

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

How do you suppose that human believers can be transformed into beings which live forever?

The scripture said that Jesus IS immortal---the only one, when Paul wrote that letter. (I Timothy 6:16) It is clear from that that spirits are not immortal and were not created immortal.

Physical humans can live forever, as long as they follow Jehovah's instructions and show Him love and respect. Adam could have lived forever if he had obeyed Jehovah. He would still be here.

[myth-one.com]

I have shown you that the demons cannot be immortal because the Bible says that at the time Paul wrote to Timothy only Jesus was immortal. Only Jesus. So it can be seen that God didn't create spirit beings to be immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is the only human to ever gain an inheritance of everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant!

The wages of sin is death, He never sinned, thus His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting life under that covenant. He was the only name in the Book of Life before the New Testament Covenant, thus He only hath immortality awaiting Him!

It's His just inheritance, and under the New Testament Covenant He offers His inheritance as a free gift to all who believe in Him as their Savior. Thus salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ and sin no longer controls our salvation.

Jesus was a man, and no man is immortal.

The scripture said that Jesus IS immortal---the only one, when Paul wrote that letter. (I Timothy 6:16) It is clear from that that spirits are not immortal and were not created immortal.

The inheritance will not be granted until the covenant is probated.

And God states that He and the angels live forever. That is, spirits are immortal!

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Genesis 3:22)

Physical humans can live forever, as long as they follow Jehovah's instructions and show Him love and respect.

That was under the Old Testament Covenant which has been replaced by the New Testament Covenant.

Adam could have lived forever if he had obeyed Jehovah. He would still be here.

Yes, Adam would be alive today if he had never sinned.

But living until one sins is not the definition of immortal!

So no man is immortal, where "immortal" means incapable of dying!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #48]
True, no man is immortal because he can always decide to sin, just as Adam did. But humans CAN live forever if they remain with the true God and live under His precepts. (Immortality and humans living forever are two separate ideas. Immortality is afforded only to Jesus and his co-rulers. Humans are not immortal but they can live forever as long as they obey Jehovah.)

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #48]
True, no man is immortal because he can always decide to sin, just as Adam did. But humans CAN live forever if they remain with the true God and live under His precepts. (Immortality and humans living forever are two separate ideas. Immortality is afforded only to Jesus and his co-rulers. Humans are not immortal but they can live forever as long as they obey Jehovah.)

Jesus was a man:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Timothy 2:5)

Jesus remained with the true God and lived under His precepts, and still died.

So your claim that humans live forever until they sin is debunked.