Incorrect belief.

[postroad]

Some would say not believing in Jesus is an incorrect belief leading to damnation. But what about beliefs based on incorrect doctrines. Do they need to be repented from as a sin leading to damnation?

[myth-one.com]

The New Testament became the active covenant or will and the Old Testament vanished away as a covenant when Jesus Christ, the testator, died on the cross!

Sorry, that's incorrect. But you're welcome to your opinion.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

The Old Testament vanished away when Jesus died on the cross:

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

A testator is a person who makes a will. "A testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Therefore, the New Testament became effective and the Old Testament vanished away as a will when Jesus Christ died on the cross.

The Old Testament has been superseded, and no one can now gain eternal life by being sinless. That avenue has been closed!

No, a person can still gain eternal life by being sinless, it's just impossible for any person to remain sinless (this was true in Old Testament times, too).

But the person, Jesus Christ, did live a sinless life. Thus proving it was possible.

You remember Jesus's conversation with the rich young ruler, right? In answer to his question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?", Jesus did in fact tell the young man that all he had to do was keep the commandments. This is in Mark 1, right? The New Testament.

This is because Jesus has not as yet died. Jesus died under the Old Testament Covenant.

Before His death, the only way to gain everlasting life was to keep the commandments! That is correct and is what He told the rich ruler!

Under the New Testament, the only path to everlasting life is to accept Jesus as one's Savior from the wages of their sins.

Christ died just as much for believers in Old Testament times as those in New Testament times; His atonement was just as effectual for them as for us.

Yes, Jesus died for "whosoever" believeth in Him. But the only path to salvation prior to His death was to remain sinless -- as He informed the rich young ruler above. To tell the ruler anything else would have been a lie. The ruler could not believe in Christ and gain everlasting life at that time.

No one met the requirements of the Old Testament except Jesus Christ. He was the first and only one saved under that covenant. All others dying under the Old Testament Covenant sinned and at present remain unsaved.

His atonement was for all sin, past, present, and future.

Yes, for whosoever from any time.

Under the New Testament, the only way to gain eternal life is to believe in Jesus Christ as one's Savior.

There is no difference between Old Testament times and New Testament times in this respect.

Eh, except that the New Testament did not apply to anyone until after Jesus' death on the cross.

Jesus, Himself, stated that.

[PinSeeker]

deleting duplicate post; not sure what happened...

[PinSeeker]

The New Testament became the active covenant or will and the Old Testament vanished away as a covenant when Jesus Christ, the testator, died on the cross!

Sorry, that's incorrect. But you're welcome to your opinion.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

The Old Testament vanished away when Jesus died on the cross:

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

1. Firstly, you're confusing a testament with a covenant, myth-one. The two are very different... which you seem to acknowledge but then turn right around and (inadvertently?) equate as one and the same... and not one and the same.

2. Secondly, you misquote two things here:

• a. With regard to Hebrews 8:13, not the old testament but the old covenant (the Covenant of Works, which has been in effect since Adam's Fall; those who do not repent of their sins and do not believe fall under this covenant, both before and after Christ's life on earth) has not vanished away, but is ready to vanish away.
  
  b. Christ is the Mediator of not the new testament but the new covenant (the Covenant of Grace, which has also been in effect since Adam's Fall; those who do repent and believe fall under this covenant, both before and after Christ's life on earth).

3. And thirdly, Jesus Christ -- God in the flesh, who in the beginning was the Word, was with God, and was God (John 1:1), is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8) and is thus unchanging from and to all eternity. Thus His will -- His testament -- is unchanging. Thus the Old Testament and the New Testament are really the same, they're just dispensed -- provided -- in different ways (through types and shadows of the Real Thing [Jesus] in Old Testament times, and through the Real Thing itself [Jesus] in New Testament times).

Remember, God is outside of our time; He is the potentate (sovereign ruler) of time, and thus Jesus is, too. Yes, Jesus stepped into time for a brief moment (about 33 years) to satisfy God's justice on behalf of God's Elect. And the impact of that is that His work of atonement on the cross accomplish and sealed the redemption of His Elect in all times, regardless whether they lived before Jesus or after. And for those who did live before, to God, it had already taken place. In exactly the same way, even though we have not died yet, to God, our glorification -- which, to us, will not occur until we leave this world or until Jesus comes back, whichever comes first -- has already taken place. This is the "now and not yet" of the Gospel.

A testator is a person who makes a will." A testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Therefore, the New Testament became effective and the Old Testament vanished away as a will when Jesus Christ died on the cross.

Nope. See above. Again, you're misquoting. A covenant is valid when men are dead, not a testament. More on that in a moment, but this first: I have a living will (testament); is it not valid? Of course it is. Okay, back to a covenant being valid only "when men are dead," in Old Testament times, the Covenant of Works was valid from the time of Adam's Fall because Adam died. Not physically, but spiritually, he died. Likewise the Covenant of Grace became valid then, too, because Jesus died -- which humanly speaking would not happen until far into the future but from God's perspective had already happened. That may be hard for you to grasp, and it is for me, too, but because we're so bounded inside linear time, but it's absolutely true.

The Old Testament has been superseded, and no one can now gain eternal life by being sinless. That avenue has been closed!

No, a person can still gain eternal life by being sinless, it's just impossible for any person to remain sinless (this was true in Old Testament times, too).

But the person, Jesus Christ, did live a sinless life. Thus proving it was possible.

But Jesus Christ is God in the flesh, myth-one. We are not. It is not possible for any human being -- without also being God as Jesus was and is -- to live a sinless life. Conversely, it was and is impossible for God (and thus Jesus) to sin. One great day that will be true of us, too, but not in this life.

You remember Jesus's conversation with the rich young ruler, right? In answer to his question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?", Jesus did in fact tell the young man that all he had to do was keep the commandments. This is in Mark 1, right? The New Testament.

This is because Jesus has not as yet died. Jesus died under the Old Testament Covenant.

Again, both the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace extend through Old and New Testament times alike.

Before His death, the only way to gain everlasting life was to keep the commandments!

Disagree. If this was the case, then why was confession and sacrifice necessary? Why did God command those things of the Israelites? Because, myth-one, it was impossible for any Israelite to keep the commandments perfectly (or anywhere close). It was as impossible for them not to sin as it is for us. No, the laying off of sin onto a lamb without blemish and the sacrifice of that lamb was just as necessary for the Israelites as it is in New Testament times. Again, they did it symbolically, but we don't have to because the true Lamb of God -- Jesus -- was sacrificed once and for all, for all time, both before He lived on earth and after.

Under the New Testament, the only path to everlasting life is to accept Jesus as one's Savior from the wages of their sins.

Well, in New Testament times, that's true. But this was true in Old Testament times to, it was just done differently -- symbolically, through types and shadows of the Real Thing, Who, in those times, was foretold many times over, beginning with Genesis 3:15 and subsequently all through the books of Moses and the Prophets, and this according to Jesus Himself. The only difference is that they looked forward to Jesus's atonement via prophecies, types, and shadows, whereas we can look back on Jesus's atonement and it's literal fulfillment.

But the only path to salvation prior to His death was to remain sinless -- as He informed the rich young ruler above. To tell the ruler anything else would have been a lie. The ruler could not believe in Christ and gain everlasting life at that time.

No, the only path to salvation for those who don't believe in Christ -- regardless of His death being past or future -- was to remain sinless, to follow follow God's Law perfectly, fulfill all of His commandments perfectly, and thus merit salvation in and of himself. This was always true from the beginning, and still is. Plus, again, this is in Mark 10 -- in the New Testament. If you want to say this was only true in the Old Testament, you're contradicting yourself here for that very reason: this conversation is taking place in the New Testament and not in the Old. Is Jesus lying to the young man? Well of course not. Perish the thought, right?

No one met the requirements of the Old Testament except Jesus Christ. He was the first and only one saved under that covenant. All others dying under the Old Testament Covenant sinned and at present remain unsaved.

Again with the conflation of the two terms (testament and covenant). See above.

...the New Testament did not apply to anyone until after Jesus' death on the cross. Jesus, Himself, stated that.

Not true at all.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 43 by PinSeeker -- but open to anyone's response!]

The Bible is divided into two sections called the Old and New Testaments.

The goal of mankind in either "Testament" is to gain everlasting life.

Those not gaining everlasting life will perish.

What is required of humans in the Old Testament to gain everlasting life?

What is required of humans in the New Testament to gain everlasting life?

Thanks.

[PinSeeker]

What is required of humans in the Old Testament to gain everlasting life?

Repentance and belief in the Messiah (promised deliverer) to come.

What is required of humans in the New Testament to gain everlasting life?

Repentance and belief in the Savior Who has come.

Thanks.

Happy to oblige.

[myth-one.com]

What is required of humans in the Old Testament to gain everlasting life?

Repentance and belief in the Messiah (promised deliverer) to come.

What is required of humans in the New Testament to gain everlasting life?

Repentance and belief in the Savior Who has come.

Thanks.

Happy to oblige.

Thanks again.

Definition of sin: Sin is the transgression of the commandments of God.

Old Testament:

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

The result, wages, punishment, or cost of doing so is death.

They sinned by violating that commandment of God and must pay the wages for that sin.

Suppose they repent and believe in the Messiah (promised deliverer) to come -- as you claim.

If that gains them everlasting life, then God lied when He declared that they would die if they sinned!

But God cannot lie:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Consequently, "Repentance and belief in the Messiah (promised deliverer) to come" does not gain humans everlasting life in the Old Testament.

===================================================================

New Testament:

You claim that "Repentance and belief in the Savior Who has come" gains one everlasting life in the New Testament.

That is incorrect also -- for the same reason. If God declares that the wages of sin is death, and sinners do not die, then God lied.

=============================================

In the New Testament, believing in our Savior makes us equal heirs with Jesus unto salvation:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Jesus became the only heir to salvation under the Old Testament, covenant, will, or whatever one wants to call it.

But He will not accept His inheritance of everlasting life. He will offer it as a gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

These heirs to salvation will receive their inheritance at the Second Coming.

That is when they will be born a second time (or born again) of the Spirit as spirits which live forever.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:5-7)

Man has a flesh body which will perish.

Spirits have spiritual bodies which live forever.

The only way man can gain everlasting life is to be born again as a spiritual bodied being.

To date, no one has been born again of the Spirit.

[PinSeeker]

Okay, so allow me to be a little more complete in my previous answer:

What is required of humans in the Old Testament to gain everlasting life?

Keeping the God's Law perfectly OR Repentance and belief in the Messiah (promised deliverer) to come.

What is required of humans in the New Testament to gain everlasting life?

Keeping the God's Law perfectly OR Repentance and belief in the Savior Who has come.

In both Old Testament times and New Testament times, it was/is impossible for any human being (other than Jesus Himself, who is God in the flesh) to keep God's Law perfectly -- impossible to not sin. This being the case, the only plausible way for anyone, regardless of when he/she actually lived/lives, to be saved and therefore inherit eternal life is to repent from his/her sin and to believe in the Messiah/Savior -- Jesus and rest upon Him alone for salvation.

Thanks.

Again, happy to oblige.

[myth-one.com]

. . . the only plausible way for anyone, regardless of when he/she actually lived/lives, to be saved and therefore inherit eternal life is to repent from his/her sin and to believe in the Messiah/Savior -- Jesus and rest upon Him alone for salvation.

And how does the Messiah/Savior Jesus provide this salvation?

[PinSeeker]

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. The result, wages, punishment, or cost of doing so is death. They sinned by violating that commandment of God and must pay the wages for that sin.
Suppose they repent and believe in the Messiah (promised deliverer) to come -- as you claim. If that gains them everlasting life, then God lied when He declared that they would die if they sinned!

Absolutely not; they did die, not physically but spiritually. They became dead in their sin -- just like we all are before we are saved. Either immediately or very soon thereafter, they did repent of their sin and believed God's promise of a Savior in Genesis 3:15. We can know this because in Genesis 4, both Cain and Abel obviously knew they were supposed to obey the Lord, and that because presumably Adam and Eve, in raising their sons, taught them to do so. They both brought an offering to the Lord because they knew they were supposed to do so -- again, presumably because their father and mother taught them to. But the offering of only one of the two was accepted by God. Why? Because only one of the two (Abel, and not Cain) made his offering in faith ("By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous..." [Hebrew 11:4]). Both were keeping God's commandment by making an offering to God, but only one was accepted -- because of his faith in God's redeeming him from sin, so from the very beginning, it was about faith.

If God declares that the wages of sin is death...

He does, both in the Old Testament and the New...

...and sinners do not die...

Adam and Eve died spiritually when they ate from the tree, and thus all human beings (other than Jesus, because He is God in the flesh) are born spiritually dead because of Adam's and Eve's fall/sin.

...then God lied.

Absolutely not.

Jesus became the only heir to salvation under the Old Testament, covenant, will, or whatever one wants to call it.

Again, Old Testament (will) and covenant are two very different things.

Aside from that, though, Jesus is always the Heir to the Kingdom, and we humans all become co-heirs with Him at the time of our salvation, regardless of the time in which we live. The only question is, do we become co-heirs on our own merit -- which would mean keeping the Law perfectly and never sinning (which is for us impossible), or resting, because of our repentance and belief, in Jesus alone as our Savior and His meriting our salvation through His death on the cross -- His atonement, or paying of the wages of sin on our behalf (which is for us made possible by God Himself). And that question is the same from Adam's and Eve's fall forward.

These heirs to salvation will receive their inheritance at the Second Coming. That is when they will be born a second time (or born again) of the Spirit as spirits which live forever.

So, am I correctly understanding that you, myth-one, even though you are a Christian:

a. understand yourself not to be born again as yet and that you will not be born again until you leave this world (when you die)?

b. do not believe that you will eventually (if Jesus has not returned yet) or immediately (if Jesus returns prior to your physical death) be resurrected in your physical body just as Jesus was?

If your answer to either one of those queries is yes, then that would put your understanding in stark contrast -- opposite, actually -- to that of orthodox Biblical Christians everywhere.

Spirits have spiritual bodies which live forever. The only way man can gain everlasting life is to be born again as a spiritual bodied being. To date, no one has been born again of the Spirit.

This is antithetical to Biblical orthodox Christianity.

[PinSeeker]

And how does the Messiah/Savior Jesus provide this salvation?

By doing a rain dance.

No, but by His atonement on the Cross, of course. Which, believers in Old Testament times saw in types and shadows, beginning with Genesis 3:15 and believers in New Testament times see in the actual atonement (the fulfillment of those types and shadows.