In the book of John, peter decides to go fishing. The other disciples decide to go with him. When one disciple realizes it is Jesus on the shore, peter puts his clothes on and jumps out of the boat. He abandoned the work he started and left others to finish the work he started. Not caring that the others wanted to see him just as bad as peter did. Peter was always impetious and selfish.
When the others finally got the nets to the shore, Jesus asked them to bring their catch to him, peter ran and took of the catch he abandoned to bring to them. Always taking credit for what he didn't do.
Jesus, knowing peter would be sent to that "other flock", the gentiles he was told to go to, and knowing peter would jump out of that boat, also. Admonishes him asking peter if peter loves him and telling peter to feed the sheep. The gentiles peter would be sent to would become, the "body of Christ" that peter was sent to, to do the work in feeding the flock. Peter always cared about what men thought of him, and always being disobedient, jumped out of that boat when "those who came from james" caused him to fall away.
How can it be said that Jesus was restoring peter to a position he never really had in the first place, and not admonishing Peter's selfishness and disobedience, warning him not to do what he had just done in abandoning his brothers and the work he started? Whole theologies are built on this story, and the idea that Jesus was putting peter in a place peter should never have been put.
If Jesus was rewarding Peter's selfish, impetious, disobedience then it cannot be said that Jesus was a just man.
Why did peter
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brianbbs67
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Re: Why did peter
Post #41[Replying to post 37 by WPG12]
Verse 7 Says "which is Not another; but there are those who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ"
He is saying they are teaching the same but perverting some aspect of it. Not a completely different gospel. This means Paul is saying to go by the Apostles teachings and interpretations and not others. The others are presumably some of the Greek converts and would have no idea on the Torah and Isreals religion and history. Or have any personal knowledge of Christ.
Verse 7 Says "which is Not another; but there are those who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ"
He is saying they are teaching the same but perverting some aspect of it. Not a completely different gospel. This means Paul is saying to go by the Apostles teachings and interpretations and not others. The others are presumably some of the Greek converts and would have no idea on the Torah and Isreals religion and history. Or have any personal knowledge of Christ.
Re: Why did peter
Post #42[Replying to brianbbs67]
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Titus 1:10-11 KJV
No heis actually talking about James, who is turning men away. Teaching, works
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:1-2 KJV
Paul was teaching we are saved through faith, only by the grace of God, James was teaching works save you, that faith cannot
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:14 KJV
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Titus 1:10-11 KJV
No heis actually talking about James, who is turning men away. Teaching, works
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:1-2 KJV
Paul was teaching we are saved through faith, only by the grace of God, James was teaching works save you, that faith cannot
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:14 KJV
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brianbbs67
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Re: Why did peter
Post #43[Replying to post 42 by WPG12]
Faith without works is dead. Will not the unfruitful branches be cut off?
We can't just have faith and not act accordingly. Even Paul says the Law showed him sin. Because without the Law there is no sin. Sin is transgression of the law. (God's law, the law for our benefit, the decalog)
Faith without works is dead. Will not the unfruitful branches be cut off?
We can't just have faith and not act accordingly. Even Paul says the Law showed him sin. Because without the Law there is no sin. Sin is transgression of the law. (God's law, the law for our benefit, the decalog)
Re: Why did peter
Post #44[Replying to brianbbs67]
No doubt Paul said you can't have faith and not act accordingly.
Isn't faith compared to a mustard seed? A seed that grows into a tree?
A tree without fruit is not dead, it may just not be in season. Like Jesus told his brothers who did not believe him, when they told him to show his works so others would believe. (which by the way is still his brothers message). Jesus told him his time wasn't ready, his fruit was still green, and not yet ripe.
With out faith, your works are dead, not worth anything. When you look at James comparison, it is completely backwards and actually pretty blasphemous.
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:1, 26 KJV
The body is given life by the spirit, so yes the body without the spirit is certainly dead.
But your work give life to faith? This is backwards, it's the branch that bears the fruit, not the fruit that bears the branch.
If your works give life to the faith god gives, that is a pretty blaspemous thing to say. What God gives is not good enough, and you have to add your own works to it to give it life. That is pretty dangerous when it comes down to it.
No doubt Paul said you can't have faith and not act accordingly.
Isn't faith compared to a mustard seed? A seed that grows into a tree?
A tree without fruit is not dead, it may just not be in season. Like Jesus told his brothers who did not believe him, when they told him to show his works so others would believe. (which by the way is still his brothers message). Jesus told him his time wasn't ready, his fruit was still green, and not yet ripe.
With out faith, your works are dead, not worth anything. When you look at James comparison, it is completely backwards and actually pretty blasphemous.
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:1, 26 KJV
The body is given life by the spirit, so yes the body without the spirit is certainly dead.
But your work give life to faith? This is backwards, it's the branch that bears the fruit, not the fruit that bears the branch.
If your works give life to the faith god gives, that is a pretty blaspemous thing to say. What God gives is not good enough, and you have to add your own works to it to give it life. That is pretty dangerous when it comes down to it.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Why did peter
Post #45[Replying to post 44 by WPG12]
James, Paul, Peter .... I'm beginning to wonder if Jesus himself entirely managed to meet with your approval. Apart from Judas Iscariot, were there any first century Christians that in your opinion were positive examples of faith?
James, Paul, Peter .... I'm beginning to wonder if Jesus himself entirely managed to meet with your approval. Apart from Judas Iscariot, were there any first century Christians that in your opinion were positive examples of faith?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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brianbbs67
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Re: Why did peter
Post #46[Replying to post 44 by WPG12]
James is referring to those who profess faith and don't live that way producing good works/fruit. Ie, those who give lip service only and their lives show otherwise.
This is an interesting new take to me(this discussion). I have seen many call Paul a wolf, but never Peter and James.
James is referring to those who profess faith and don't live that way producing good works/fruit. Ie, those who give lip service only and their lives show otherwise.
This is an interesting new take to me(this discussion). I have seen many call Paul a wolf, but never Peter and James.
Re: Why did peter
Post #47[Replying to post 45 by JehovahsWitness]
Show me that I'm wrong, I'd like to know if I am. I don't want to stand in front of God one day and say I wish I had known.
Show me that I'm wrong, I'd like to know if I am. I don't want to stand in front of God one day and say I wish I had known.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Why did peter
Post #48WPG12 wrote: [Replying to post 45 by JehovahsWitness]
Show me that I'm wrong, I'd like to know if I am. I don't want to stand in front of God one day and say I wish I had known.
Did Peter ever repent of denying Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 815#932815
Was Peter's swimming to shore to greet the resurrected Jesus a sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 769#932769
Was Peter the "rock" upon which the church was built?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 113#883113
Did Paul go to Jerusalem shortly after his conversion to consult with the apostles?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 497#374497
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Why did peter
Post #49[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]
I'm not reading all of that. If you can't tell me in your own words with your own understanding, but have to point to what someone else may have said, then ii cannot question what you aren't saying.
I'm not reading all of that. If you can't tell me in your own words with your own understanding, but have to point to what someone else may have said, then ii cannot question what you aren't saying.
Re: Why did peter
Post #50You have certainly been confused by the babel/babble of Paul. "Good fruit" gives proof of a good tree, and bad fruit gives proof of a "rotten tree"/false prophet (Matthew 7:15-20).WPG12 wrote: [Replying to brianbbs67]
No doubt Paul said you can't have faith and not act accordingly.
Isn't faith compared to a mustard seed? A seed that grows into a tree?
A tree without fruit is not dead, it may just not be in season. Like Jesus told his brothers who did not believe him, when they told him to show his works so others would believe. (which by the way is still his brothers message). Jesus told him his time wasn't ready, his fruit was still green, and not yet ripe.
With out faith, your works are dead, not worth anything. When you look at James comparison, it is completely backwards and actually pretty blasphemous.
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:1, 26 KJV
The body is given life by the spirit, so yes the body without the spirit is certainly dead.
But your work give life to faith? This is backwards, it's the branch that bears the fruit, not the fruit that bears the branch.
If your works give life to the faith god gives, that is a pretty blaspemous thing to say. What God gives is not good enough, and you have to add your own works to it to give it life. That is pretty dangerous when it comes down to it.
As for faith, who has more faith than a jihadist who blows himself up believing that he has 72 virgins waiting for him in heaven. Apparently, his fruit is rotten, yet he has faith regardless.
