Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[EBA]

he was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING.

Excellent point, so the next question to ask is "From the beginning of WHAT?"

- the beginning or time? (support with scripture)
- the beginning of creation? (support with scripture)
- the beginning of his existence as a living being? (support with scripture)
- the beginning of his corruption as a rebel ? (support with scripture)

other? (support with scripture)

Do you have an opinion on this? And can you produce any scriptures to support your answer to the above question?

JW

Yes. My opinion is that you are complicating the matter.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2Co 11:3)

ps: It is perfectly alright to admit that it has never occurred to you to ask this logical question.

I’ll admit I have never asked that question simply because I don’t think it’s logical.

I must say that when I read:

-He was a murderer from the beginning,- (Joh 8:44)

and

-the devil sinneth from the beginning.- (1Jn 3:8)

I just assumed that “the beginning� meant this beginning:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1)

It seemed obvious and logical to me.

I still believe this to be true when taking scripture literally; fortunately, for me, Christ has opened my eyes to certain spiritual truths.

The question you should be asking is, “Who is the beginning?�

Peace

[EBA]

Satan was never an angel.

Prove this from scripture please....

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. (Isa 54:16)

Second witness:

By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. (Job 26:13)

Third witness:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Gen 3:1)

Yes God created Satan.

Fourth witness:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8)

Fifth witness:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (Joh 8:44 )

What was he if not an angel?

H7854
שׂטן
s�âṭân
saw-tawn'
From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand.

His name alone should tell you he was never "The Angel that became the Devil."

Peace

[brianbbs67]

While we delve this tangent, remember the Hebrew word for Angel is the same as Messenger. They are used interchangeably whether the "messenger" in question is human or divine. It does not denote divine ever. Actual circumstance determine that.

[brianbbs67]

Also, I have determined from reading the Tanakh, that the serpent in the garden may not have been Satan at all. Otherwise, the Israelites would have noted that as they did everywhere else in the OT. If Ha' Satan is the high Adversary , doesn't that imply there are lower one too..

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 41 by EBA]

None of the scriptures you provided address the question. "The beginning of what?" Just providing other scriptures that have the word "beginning" does not help. Yes, we know Satan was bad at "the beginning" We know he lied at "the beginning" but we STILL don't know what the beginning refers to

I’ll admit I have never asked that question simply because I don’t think it’s logical.

Thank you for your honestly but you are wrong to say it is not a logical question.

To illustrate: If someone said "It's very important you are here at the beginning" anyone with the least amount of common sense and critical thinking skills would ask "The beginning of WHAT?". There is obviously some kind of action or process that is set to beginning but unless you know what it is you are none the wiser as to what the expression means. Simply repeating (and underlining in blue) "the beginning", "the beginning", "the beginning" "be here AT THE BEGINNING!!" will not shed light on the question.

[JehovahsWitness]

I just assumed that “the beginning� meant this beginning: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1)

Well at least you have admitted it is just an assumption. Now can you provide ANY scriptural support for your assumption? Anything at all?

It seemed obvious and logical to me.

Why? Scriptural support please.

[brianbbs67]

Did anyone actually read and check out what I have written? Drop your doctrine at the door, its a dead mans party.



Song for emphasis only.

[paarsurrey1]

Did Christ have free will?

What a god or son of god Pauline-Christians have? He couldn't do anything on his own will, yet the Pauline-Christians believe he created the heavens and the earth.And yet they believe he is Omnipotent.
An ordinary person does many things on his own, on his free-will but the god of
Pauline-Christians cannot. Is an ordinary man in the street more potent than this omnipotent Jesus of the Pauline-Christians, please?

Regards

[EBA]

None of the scriptures you provided address the question. "The beginning of what?" Just providing other scriptures that have the word "beginning" does not help. Yes, we know Satan was bad at "the beginning" We know he lied at "the beginning" but we STILL don't know what the beginning refers to

Well most of us do, you however either won’t admit it, or you're simply struggling to understand the Word of God.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63)

Christ’s words are spirit and Christ is the Word of God.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1Co 2:13)

You should see here that spiritual things are the Word of God.

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Mat 18:16)

Second witness:

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2Co 13:1)

I’ve presented several witnesses (the Word of God) that not only prove God created Satan, but that he did it “in the beginning� when he created the heavens and the earth.

You, on the other hand, have presented one witness, an opinion, and a barrage of questions.

The irony here is that you claim to be Jehovahs Witness.

[EBA]

While we delve this tangent, remember the Hebrew word for Angel is the same as Messenger. They are used interchangeably whether the "messenger" in question is human or divine. It does not denote divine ever. Actual circumstance determine that.

Hi brianbbs67,

I believe we are all angels, either messengers of light or dark.

What say you?

Peace.