How and when did the Trinity become Christian dogma?

[polonius]

(1) Mark 12:28-30
One of the scribes, when he came forward and heard them disputing and saw how well he had answered them, asked him, “Which is the first of all the commandments?�29Jesus replied, “The first is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is Lord alone!30You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’j

(2) However, while Jesus remained a man (“Son of God, or Son of Man) and was raised from the dead by God, about 85 AD, Jesus began to be considered divine himself. His can be seen in John’s gospel written about 95 AD.
This broke with the traditional Old Testament teaching that the Lord was one, resulted in the Christians being excluded from the Hebrew synagogues, and the Christians labeled as heretics (“minim�).

(3) … According to Berakhot 28b, Samuel ha Katan (fl. c. 80-110), at the invitation of Gamaliel II of Jabneh, composed the "benediction against the minim," included in the Amidah as the twelfth benediction (see E. J. Bickerman, in HTR, 55 (1962), 171, n. 35). This was directed primarily against Judeo-Christians (specifically mentioned in one old text—see Schechter, JQR 10 (1897 / 98)), either to keep them out of the synagogue or to proclaim a definite breach between the two religions." 3
[See article Genizah Specimens / Liturgy, by Solomon Schechter, in The Jewish Quarterly Review, Volume 10, 1898, pages 654 - 659.]

(4) Arianism was a counter movement which claimed that Jesus was not divine himself and a large group of Christians reverted to this view.

(5) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binitarianism#History

After the 325 Council of Nicaea defeated Arianism, the Council of Constantinople was called in 381 in order to attempt to deal with the binitarians, who were referred to as "Semi-Arians". However, as the Trinity was finalized at this time as official Christian doctrine, the offended Semi-Arians walked out. "They rejected the Arian view that Christ was created and had a different nature from God (anomoios dissimilar), but neither did they accept the Nicene Creed which stated that Christ was 'of one substance (homoousios) with the Father'. Semi-Arians taught that Christ was similar (homoios) to the Father, or of like substance (homoiousios), but still subordinate"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Cr ... itan_Creed

(6) “What is known as the "Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed" or the "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed"[21] received this name because of a belief that it was adopted at the Second Ecumenical Council held in Constantinople in 381 as a modification of the original Nicene Creed of 325…

“It differs in a number of respects, both by addition and omission, from the creed adopted at the First Council of Nicaea. The most notable difference is the additional section "And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets….�

[2timothy316]

You can start with the 1,000 Biblical references to the Trinity found here:

http://irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity

One thousand references is a lot of cherries!

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/trinity.html#_1_17

I can do links too. So what?

You can start with this just this one that makes all of your 1000 cherries fall from the tree.

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4

[2timothy316]

2timothy316 wrote:

It has been proven in this thread by many. Simply re-read any thread on this forum about the trinity and there will be dozens of post with proof. I'm going to rehash it.

It has been argued. It has yet to be proven.

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4

If there was a trinity, this would have been the time to teach it. It's what we get from this scripture and not what you're about to impose on it. (I hear the eisegesis gears turning on how to change the scripture to fit the trinity doctrine)

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 39 by 2timothy316]

It has been proven in this thread by many. Simply re-read any thread on this forum about the trinity and there will be dozens of post with proof. I'm going to rehash it.

Hmmmmmmm . . . . cherry picked proof? Like Overcomer said please look in the mirror when you say these things.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 39 by 2timothy316]

It has been proven in this thread by many. Simply re-read any thread on this forum about the trinity and there will be dozens of post with proof. I'm going to rehash it.

Hmmmmmmm . . . . cherry picked proof? Like Overcomer said please look in the mirror when you say these things.

Nope. Not cherry picked. I didn't have an idea and then go look for it. It was in the Bible already. “Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4 (I hear the eisegesis gears turning on how to change the scripture to fit the trinity doctrine. Meanwhile doing so, totally not understanding that their interpretation is influenced by an outside source. That is what makes the trinity an eisegesis interpretation.)

Note I don't have to throw out 1000 scriptures. I just need one. The trinity doesn't get a single clear scripture like Deuteronomy 6:4 does it?

[Overcomer]

2timothy316 wrote:

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�—Deuteronomy 6:4

If there was a trinity, this would have been the time to teach it. It's what we get from this scripture and not what you're about to impose on it. (I hear the eisegesis gears turning on how to change the scripture to fit the trinity doctrine)

It's absolutely true that there is only one God. I don't know any Christians of the orthodox ilk who would disagree with that.

But it's precisely BECAUSE of that statement that we recognize that, because the Bible ALSO presents Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God -- equal in essence, eternality, power, etc. -- that we realize God HAS to be a Trinity, that is, one God who exists in three persons.

The Old Testament does offer us verses that indicate the Trinity -- verses such as "let us make man in our image" (Gen. 1:26), for example.

I provided links where I explain why Jesus and the Holy Spirit are deity along with Yahweh. You are welcome to check them out and you are welcome to debate them. If I'm guilty of eisegesis as you keep suggesting, then please offer some evidence to back up that opinion.

I have to go make supper. Tomorrow is another day!

Re: your link offering verses to support your anti-Trinitarian view, I will indeed respond to them in due time.

[2timothy316]

But it's precisely BECAUSE of that statement that we recognize that, because the Bible ALSO presents Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God -- equal in essence, eternality, power, etc. -- that we realize God HAS to be a Trinity, that is, one God who exists in three persons.

John:14:28 "The Father is greater than I"

Philippians 2:5, 6 "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Equal? No.

The Old Testament does offer us verses that indicate the Trinity -- verses such as "let us make man in our image" (Gen. 1:26), for example.

But it doesn't say 'us' is God. The eiesgesis interpretation practice you use makes it a prop for your doctrine. While it is likely that the us is Jehovah and Jesus there is nothing that directly say they are both God.

I provided links where I explain why Jesus and the Holy Spirit are deity along with Yahweh. You are welcome to check them out and you are welcome to debate them. If I'm guilty of eisegesis as you keep suggesting, then please offer some evidence to back up that opinion.

I am not interested. I have seen all of them before and they do not teach the trinity. They are being use as props in eiesgesis. An interpretation practice I do not accept.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 34 by RightReason]

“As we have seen, Christianity inherited the monotheism of Israel, but gradually developed it by the elaboration of the doctrine of the Trinity.� - p. 619, v. 6, 1941, Encyclopedia Americana.
.....
“Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible [the Old Testament] does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity ... Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God such as Word (davar), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.

“Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity. God the Father is source of all that is (Pantokrator) and also the father of Jesus Christ; ‘Father’ is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God....

“It is incontestable that the [Trinity] doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone.� - The Encyclopedia of Religion, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1987, volume 15, p. 54.
.....

“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord [Jehovah/Yahweh] our God is one Lord.’ Deut. 6:4 .... The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies .... It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.� - The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropedia, vol. 11, p. 928. +

.....

“Trinity, a word not found in Scripture but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in 3 distinct persons. Not only is the word ‘Trinity’ not in Scripture, but there is no isolated exposition on this attribute of God in either testament. It is an inferred doctrine, gathered eclectically from the entire Canon.� - p. 630 of the trinitarian publication, Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House Publishers, 1982.
.....
“[The Trinity Doctrine] is not ... directly and immediately the word of God.� - (p. 304) “The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.� - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.
.....
The trinitarian reference work, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Zondervan, admits: “The NT does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. ‘The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself. And the other express declaration is also lacking, that God is God thus and only thus, i.e. as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These two express declarations which go beyond the witness of the Bible, are the twofold content of the Church doctrine of the Trinity.’.... It also lacks such terms as ‘trinity’ ... and homoousios which featured in the Creed of Nicaea (325) to denote that Christ was of the same substance as the Father.� And “All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds [after 325 A. D.] of the early church.� - p. 84, v. 2.
.....
“... the doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; that it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers; that in the time of Justin [c. 100-165 A. D.], and long after, the distinct nature and inferiority [in comparison to the Father only, of course] of the Son were universally taught; and that only the first shadowy outline of the Trinity had then become visible.� – p. 34, The Church of the First Three Centuries, Alvan Lamson, D.D.
.....

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Protestant) says: “The word Trinity is not found in the Bible .... It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century .... Although scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the Trinity, it contains all the elements out of which theology has constructed the doctrine.�
.....

Eerdman’s Handbook to the History of Christianity, 1977, pp. 112-113 admits: “Before the Council of Nicaea (A D 325) all theologians viewed the Son as in one way or another subordinate to the Father.� - also found on p. 114 in the revised 1990 ed. of The History of Christianity, Lion Publishing.

.....

“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian .... It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the NT [New Testament] and other early Christian writings.� - Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Hastings.
.....
“In this period [1st century A.D.] churches were still regarded as synagogues, whose members prayed three times a day and fasted twice a week like Jews... They professed monotheism in the same terms as did the Jews. .... Within individual congregations they continued to think, argue, and act like their Jewish counterparts.� - pp. 121-122, The Rise of Christianity, W. H. C. Frend (trinitarian), 1985, Fortress Press.
.....
“Speculative thought began to analyze the divine nature until in the 4th century an elaborate theory of a threefoldness in God appears. In this Nicene or Athanasian form of thought God is said to consist of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all equally eternal, powerful and glorious.� - Encyclopedia Americana, 1944, v. 6, p. 619, “Christianity.�
.....
When even trinitarian scholars and historians admit that the trinity was not understood by the first Christians and was gradually developed over centuries, and the first OFFICIAL beginning of it (a 2-person God) was first enforced on Christians by a non-Christian Roman emperor (Constantine) in the 4th century, we should at least begin to question the acceptance of this "elaborate theory" which became a "constructed" doctrine.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 44 by 2timothy316]

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�

And how does the Trinity contradict this? Shows you don't even know what the doctrine of the Trinity means.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 47 by tigger2]



I will comment on some of your bolded parts . . .

“As we have seen, Christianity inherited the monotheism of Israel, but gradually developed it by the elaboration of the doctrine of the Trinity.� - p. 619, v. 6, 1941, Encyclopedia Americana.

Correct, Christianity’s roots are Jewish – Jesus was a Jew.

“Further, exegetes and theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.

No kidding, hence this very discussion. Scripture does not contain any explicit doctrines.

“It is incontestable that the [Trinity] doctrine cannot be established on scriptural evidence alone.� - The Encyclopedia of Religion, Macmillan Publishing Co., 1987, volume 15, p. 54.

Good thing – a Christian should never rely on Scripture alone. To do so is actually contrary to Scripture. The Church existed prior to the Bible. Christians have always been commanded to listen to Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition (the Church)

The doctrinedeveloped gradually over several centuries and through many controversies

Sure. Even Scripture itself shows us the first Christians disagreed on things and the matter needed to be decided by the Church.

there is no isolated exposition on this attribute of God in either testament. It is an inferreddoctrine, gathered eclectically from the entire Canon.�

True. There is no isolated example – as that is not how Scripture is to be understood. A reading of the Bible as a whole must be done and interpreted by Christ’s Church who alone was given such authority.

“All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds [after 325 A. D.] of the early church.� - p. 84, v. 2.

It is no secret there was no formalized doctrine of the Trinity, but what the Church does have is lots of historical evidence from early church writing, what can be derived from Sacred Scripture, and what was taught and believed from Christ’s Church from the beginning.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 44 by 2timothy316]

“Jehovah Our God Is One Jehovah�

And how does the Trinity contradict this? Shows you don't even know what the doctrine of the Trinity means.

RESPONSE: One Jehovah verses three Jehovahs.