The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[tam]

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev 3:21

He had already sat down on the throne by the time He told John to write to the seven congregations.

Whose throne did Jesus sit down on back so many centuries ago?

His Father's throne... the throne (seat of rulership) that He has inherited and from which He rules. Just as we will sit with Him on His throne.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.



See also:

For this reason, ‘They are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd.


No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.


It is the same throne. He calls it His Father's throne because that is simply the truth - it is His Father's throne that He sat down upon and from which He rules, as the heir.

Same as a prince sits down on his father's throne when he inherits a Kingdom. The difference is that a human prince often inherits that throne upon the death of the king, but God never dies. He has seated Christ as King out of love for His Son, and because that Son is worthy of that Kingdom, and would never try to usurp His Father. Also out of love.

How could Jesus be appointed king in 1914 if he already had "all authority" in 33 CE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 355#829355

[/quote]


You keep linking to this post, and that is fine, but I responded to this question on the same thread you keep linking to.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

[Replying to post 36 by tam]



The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev 3:21

Comparison with kjv:
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

To us earthlings it makes sense to say 'on' my throne but kjv says 'in' my throne.
We compare heavenly throne with throne here on earth yet God's throne is wherever he is honored, loved, worshiped.
We could say, his throne is in my heart - not on my heart.

If the 'the earth is his footstool', how big is his throne where he sits?
Does God sit? Is it perhaps a figure of speech?

Such as a seat of authority. A seat from which one rules, from which one exercises authority, such as the authority Christ received upon His death and resurrection. All authority in heaven and upon the earth.

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev 3:21

Whose throne did Jesus sit down on back so many centuries ago?

It is the same throne.

Really? So if we are talking about one and "the same" throne, why did Jesus refer to his throne which he will share ("sit with me on my throne") as well as seperately to his Father's throne ("I sat down on his throne")?

If someone said "this is my wife and that is his wife" would you also conclude that you both share the "same" wife? Or would reason prevail to conclude "my" and "his" indicate different?


JW

RELATED POSTS

What is the Messianic Kingdom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p883775

How could Jesus be appointed king in 1914 if he already had "all authority" in 33 CE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p829355

[tam]

[Replying to post 43 by JehovahsWitness]

If you're gonna quote me, maybe quote it all, or at least the info that leads up to and explains the 'it is the same throne'? Then maybe try responding to the specific points made in that post?

Do you ever see any description of Christ sitting on one throne and God sitting on a separate throne?


Does not the throne (and everything) belong to God? So that when Christ inherits the Kingdom, He would say that He sat down on His Father's throne? Is it not then also His throne?


"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb, down the middle of the great street of the city."

"No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city."


And the one I already shared,

"They are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd."


If the throne is a seat of authority, and the throne of God would the seat of His authority, then would not the Heir sit upon that throne when He is given all authority in heaven and on earth?


Quibble over thrones or not, He was given all authority in heaven and on earth, upon His death and resurrection. That was not a limited authority; that was ALL authority.




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[ttruscott]

Nothing could be clearer, the kingdom is present.

In the parable of the sinful but good seed, the good seed are called the people of the kingdom Matt 13:37-38 and these people who are already of the kingcom are being sown / born (not created) into the world by the Son of Man... The Kingdom is older than the foundation of the earth.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 40 by Monta]

Does God sit? Is it perhaps a figure of speech?

I would say so.

It is a figure of speech indicating God's supreme authority and rulership as King of kings.

An authority and kingship that has been shared with Jesus Christ since his ascension, and was already in operation during his ministry.

[William]

I have scanned this thread because I am interested in the idea of GOD being modeled on Monarchy is a deception created by elitists in order to snare the minds of human beings who choose to believe it.

The imagery presented relating to this idea of GOD, by the JW organisation is pretty much the way all Christians I have ever encountered believe GOD to be.

That many Christians do not agree with the JW organisations interpretations of unfolding events related to Biblical interpretation is besides the point in this regard. Where they agree is in the imagery.



In relation to the imagery, it can also be noted that the GOD is presented as being of Aryan descent which is also a clue as to that race this particular deception is identifiable as having derived from.

But the significant point in relation to what Christian theists agree with is that the idea of GOD as an individual monarch, and the idea of the Bible as this Monarchs 'word', is truth.

Also to note, that the specific JW organisation interpretation of 'The Kingdom' of this idea of GOD will be established on the Planet, is not what all Christians believe - but that the JW organisation believe that they are not a part of what is referred to as Christendom, but are separate from that institution because of their belief in their particular interpretations.

However, these two distinct things which they do agree with the rest of Christendom about is the Monarchical idea of GOD and that the Bible is the word of GOD, are enough to convince the observer that they are indeed part of Christendom, rather than separated from it.

The reason I point this out has to do with the truthful observation that the idea of a Monarchical is based upon the elitist ideas of government, and altogether the elitist are those who created this idea and who represent in the imagery, their collective selves enthroned and dictating the terms and conditions of human government from that throne.

The idea itself is deception because:

The idea that any created entity could "usurp" an omnipotent magical creator is quite literally ridiculous.

The whole idea of an angle or devil trying to take over an omnipotent God's ultimate authority actually stems from the quite silly idea that this God obtains his power in a very similar way as a mortal king (i.e. in maintains his power via armies) and all that needs to be done to usurp the God would be to defeat his army and take over his kingdom.

What is quoted above is true analysis of observation of belief systems related to the idea of a GOD enthroned.

The idea of a GOD enthroned derives from ancient human belief systems injected into human society by the elitists, and this was long before the Jews ever existed as a race or wrote their own documentation of their own organised religions based around those ideas of an enthroned GOD.

Their own documentation (holy books) became popularized through the advent of the Roman Empire and the whole push of the elitist deception was to use the Abraham idea of GOD as a vehicle/device to deceive the nations and usurp all idea of GOD which were NOT Monarchical, from the minds and beliefs and knowledge of human beings, and to do so by any means.

Even so-called prophesy is part of that deception and the idea of writing something down and having it come to pass was to make the idea of this GOD appear genuine and somewhat all knowing as yet another way of getting human beings to believe the deception was actually truth. And as is evidence, this is precisely what has happened.

All that is required for that to happen is to have a very long-term plan and the means in which to make it so. Both those things the elitists possess.

There is even a phrase for it. It escape me for now, but it has to do with designed destiny and uses imagery in order to fix itself within the human mind. It acts as an anchor.


Now I am a theist, which means that I believe in the existence of GOD.

The obvious thing about theists is that they have different opinions as to what GOD actually is and how that can be truthfully presented.

Thus the confusion.

My idea of GOD is that IT isn't directly involved in the affairs of this universe as any main contributor to that process which has been going on for a very, very long time now.

The difference between the pretend idea of GOD and the real one is that the real one only speaks the truth while the false one cheats by not totality lying. In order for its deception to actually work it has to mix aspects of the real GOD with its fake one.

Otherwise human beings would see through the deception because human beings are the true GODs consciousness within the form or instrument - the human body and all that implies.

It is that true aspect of GOD which has been successfully tricked into believing in a false idea of - when all is said and done - Itself.

But the elite cheat. The cheat is a lie of course but it is also the only thing that can actually snare the One True GOD, through the human instrument and using a pinch of truth to confuse the human consciousness.

Okay - so 'point proven' - GOD can be snared, but not by lies alone...but the vast majority of the True GODs consciousness is outside of the human drama playing out in this local part of the universe...on that small speck of dust suspended in the Sol-light.

We owe it to that True GOD to - at the very least - change the predicament we all created for ourselves in this prison, and make it at least comfortable for the True GOD to exist within while that aspect of ITS consciousness remains involved with that reality, sorting itself out..

We need to honor THAT idea of GOD by honoring each other.

The false idea of GOD has caused a very nasty drama which needs to be properly addressed and resolved, otherwise the false GOD 'wins' so to speak - but in reality, the false GOD gets to continue playing GOD over us for as long as that deception can last. Creating AI instruments to live within in order to cheat death, won't help.

Death is the other aspect to all this, and the drama does not go away simply because we die. The afterlife as we refer to it, still has the drama of that deception going on.

And that is where all who support the idea of the false GOD are going to wind up.

Those who support the real idea of GOD are going elsewhere, to that vast place where the drama of the speck of dust and the consciousnesses involved within it are not thought about very much.

Not to say that we will not be able to come and go as we please and offer this and that assistance - after all there is still that aspect of GOD-consciousness which needs assistance and is suffering unnecessarily, but that's going to be a long process by all accounts. WE love it because we know it is a part of us that has forgotten what it really is. We want it to remember.

The choice - as -ever, is up to the individuate consciousness. That is the gift we all receive. We forever are not going to die, so whatever our situation, GOD is with us.

Hope it is a happy place.

W

[JehovahsWitness]

In relation to the imagery, it can also be noted that the GOD is presented as being of Aryan descent

Jehovah's Witness literature never shows the face of God (we call God Jehovah) in our illustrations; in the picture above is an artists impression of the resurrected Jesus (JWs are not trinitarians so God and Jesus are not viewed as being the same).

JW


RELATED POSTS

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses illustrations depict the 144,000 all as white males?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 721#879721]

[Checkpoint]

Nothing could be clearer, the kingdom is present.

In the parable of the sinful but good seed, the good seed are called the people of the kingdom Matt 13:37-38 and these people who are already of the kingcom are being sown / born (not created) into the world by the Son of Man... The Kingdom is older than the foundation of the earth.

All Jesus kingdom parables are about the kingdom in its present and/or future aspects.

None say "The Kingdom is older than the foundation of the earth".

There are no "people who are already of the kingdom" before the sower begins to sow.

[Monta]

[Replying to William]


"The choice - as -ever, is up to the individuate consciousness. That is the gift we all receive. We forever are not going to die, so whatever our situation, GOD is with us.

Hope it is a happy place. "

You have divided God into a false God and true God.
As there is only One God, the division arises in our perception.
Some are better than others and none get it quite right.
Those who had NDE tell us there are no earthly words to describe their experience
of what they witnessed in heavenly light while we are in the natural light.

The biblical story is a sample of the best and the worst in human nature which could have been written about any other people on earth.
It's purpose is not history but spiritual development.