Pre- Election or free will.

[rdventen]

:harass: Genesis 3 (New King James Version)

Genesis 3
The Temptation and Fall of Man

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?�
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’�
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.�
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?�
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.�
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?�
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.�
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?�
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.�
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.�
16 To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.�
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“ Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.�
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
21 Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever�— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

In view of the above sricptures free will is evident. Because if we do not have free will then life is no more then a joke on mankind.

[Benoni]

Yes Jesus is God.

No. He was not born from Adam; He is the second Adam.

Without a sinner there is no reason for a savior.

I can prove to you that Jesus was indeed born of Adam.
The word Adam means mankind. It is a plural word and the word Adam includes all females. It is not a word that only relates to the male of the human species.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Jesus was born of a female of the species of Adam. He was born of a woman named Mary, was he not? How then can He be righteous?

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


Job 14:1 Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.

Job 15:14 What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


The first Adam represents the flesh. Jesus was indeed born of the flesh. He came in the flesh as well as in the Spirit.


Jesus became the sinner when he died on the cross. He was made sin. He became sin. ( 2Cr 5:21)

Who was Jesus savior?

You are all over the place with no context. You be much better off to stick to one point and making your point. There is no connection to this fabel you are pushing.

[Skyangel]

Man has a will, he has a freewill or choice; but not when it comes to salvation; salvation comes from God and carnal man is dead to the realm of God and cannot choose God freely for it is not in his nature. Man is a sin robot, yes he can choose to do good things, but his nature is of the first Adam which is the sin nature.

If Adam would of never sin he would have been a preprogramed robot doing God’s will; that is why God caused the fall.

Was Jesus then a preprogrammed robot in your opinion ? A robot of the kind that could not fall and could not sin?

If mankind has no choice when it comes to choosing to follow Jesus or not, How is man saved? How can man make a choice to follow Jesus if His salvation is not about making a choice to turn away from evil? Why would the bible tell man to choose who he will serve if man has no choice as to who to serve? Why would the bible tell man to work out his own salvation if salvation does not depend on man or his actions?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Salvation does come from God but that salvation is Jesus Himself and man can choose to accept salvation and follow salvation or reject salvation. God IS salvation.
Exd 15:2 The LORD [is] my strength and song, and he is become my salvation:

Jesus is the second Adam; He was not born from Adam; his ministry was to reverse the curse to overcome; Adam’s ministry was to fail.

I proved to you from the bible on the previous post that Jesus was indeed born of Adam. The bible tells us he was born of the flesh as well as of the spirit. Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Jesus came in the flesh.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The first Adam became the last Adam and the last Adam became the first Adam.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last:

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Victory always overcomes failure.

[rdventen]

Yes Jesus is God.

No. He was not born from Adam; He is the second Adam.

Without a sinner there is no reason for a savior.

I can prove to you that Jesus was indeed born of Adam.
The word Adam means mankind. It is a plural word and the word Adam includes all females. It is not a word that only relates to the male of the human species.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Jesus was born of a female of the species of Adam. He was born of a woman named Mary, was he not? How then can He be righteous?

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


Job 14:1 Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.

Job 15:14 What [is] man, that he should be clean? and [he which is] born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean [that is] born of a woman?

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


The first Adam represents the flesh. Jesus was indeed born of the flesh. He came in the flesh as well as in the Spirit.


Jesus became the sinner when he died on the cross. He was made sin. He became sin. ( 2Cr 5:21)

Who was Jesus savior?

John 3:16 (New King James Version)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(Believing in God will not save anyone, only believing in the Son of God Jesus can save You.)

2 Samuel 26-28

26 “With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;

27 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.(You reap what you sow, you sow evil you reap evil, you sow good you reap good.)

28 You will save the humble people;
But Your eyes are on the haughty, that You may bring them down.(God does not create evil, but uses evil against its self.)

1 John 5-10

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (No evil if you please.) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

[Skyangel]

John 3:16 (New King James Version)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

(Believing in God will not save anyone, only believing in the Son of God Jesus can save You.)

Indeed, but there are more ways than one way to interpret those words.
How do you reconcile those words with this scripture >
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.

Was Jesus the son of man ? The bible tells us not to place any trust in the son of man.
How can a person believe in the Son of God and also not place any trust in the son of man ?

2 Samuel 26-28

26 “With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;

27 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

(You reap what you sow, you sow evil you reap evil, you sow good you reap good.)

28 You will save the humble people;
But Your eyes are on the haughty, that You may bring them down.

(God does not create evil, but uses evil against its self.)

We do indeed reap what we sow but the very same principle applies to God Himself. Jesus appeared to be merciful to the merciful, pure to the pure, evil to the evil. a liar to the devious. Truth is a mirror to those who look at it and into it.

Are you saying God is telling lies in Isa 45:7 when He admits He does create evil ?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

1 John 5-10

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (No evil if you please.) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Indeed there is no darkness in light and no evil in goodness. However there is light in darkness and goodness in evil. If there was not, no person would be capable of seeing or perceiving evil as good or calling Truth a lie. There is also artificial light.

Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

How do you interpret the words " If the light be darkness" ? Can light be darkness?

Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].

( Light and darkness are all the same to God.)

Look closely at this scripture
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:

The light creates darkness. Light creates shadows ( darkness) when it shines on solid objects. If the light did not create darkness then you would be blinded by the light and unable to see or recognize the light anyway. The darkness gives you the ability to see the light as well as the objects on which the light shines.

[rdventen]

John 3:16 (New King James Version)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

(Believing in God will not save anyone, only believing in the Son of God Jesus can save You.)

Indeed, but there are more ways than one way to interpret those words.
How do you reconcile those words with this scripture >
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help. (He Jesus is only called the son of man because He took on human flash, but He Jesus was not born of a human man but of God His Father.)

Was Jesus the son of man ? The bible tells us not to place any trust in the son of man.
How can a person believe in the Son of God and also not place any trust in the son of man ?

2 Samuel 26-28

26 “With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;

27 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

(You reap what you sow, you sow evil you reap evil, you sow good you reap good.)

28 You will save the humble people;
But Your eyes are on the haughty, that You may bring them down.

(God does not create evil, but uses evil against its self.)

We do indeed reap what we sow but the very same principle applies to God Himself. Jesus appeared to be merciful to the merciful, pure to the pure, evil to the evil. a liar to the devious. Truth is a mirror to those who look at it and into it.

Are you saying God is telling lies in Isa 45:7 when He admits He does create evil ?(What Jesus is doing here is judging the religious rulers of the Jews, because they were ruling the people unjustly, and not in truth.)
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:(God did create light and darkness, but not evil but as I said God uses evil against its self.) I the LORD do all these [things].

1 John 5-10

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (No evil if you please.) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Indeed there is no darkness in light and no evil in goodness. However there is light in darkness and goodness in evil. If there was not, no person would be capable of seeing or perceiving evil as good or calling Truth a lie.(So what you are saying is that if I have a dog and beat it for a long time then treat that dog good that the dog would appreciate the good more?) There is also artificial light.

Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

How do you interpret the words " If the light be darkness" ? Can light be darkness?

Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].

( Light and darkness are all the same to God.)

Look closely at this scripture
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:

The light creates darkness. Light creates shadows ( darkness) when it shines on solid objects. (OK so if you are in a room with the door closed with the lights on, and I shine a light on the door that I would make the room dark?) If the light did not create darkness then you would be blinded by the light and unable to see or recognize the light anyway. The darkness gives you the ability to see the light as well as the objects on which the light shines.

[Skyangel]

(He Jesus is only called the son of man because He took on human flash, but He Jesus was not born of a human man but of God His Father.)

I understand that completely but that does not change the fact that scripture says not to place any trust in the son of man. Your reply is not answering the question but rather dancing around it to try to avoid it. I will repeat the question.
Please answer it .
Was Jesus the son of man or not ?
How can a person believe in the Son of God and also not place any trust in the son of man ?

?(What Jesus is doing here is judging the religious rulers of the Jews, because they were ruling the people unjustly, and not in truth.)

I see no judgment at all in Isa 45:7. I see a simple statement where the Lord admits to being the instigator and creator of all things good as well as evil.
Where is the judgment in the statement?

(God did create light and darkness, but not evil but as I said God uses evil against its self.)

It appears that you are calling the Lord a liar since Isaiah 45:7 specifically says He created evil. The fact that you think God only uses evil against itself does not change the fact that He created that evil in the first place.
In what way do you see evil being used against itself anyway? In the principles of the bible evil cannot overcome evil, so what purpose does evil serve ?

(So what you are saying is that if I have a dog and beat it for a long time then treat that dog good that the dog would appreciate the good more?)

Anyone including dogs or other animals obviously prefer good treatment to bad treatment. However, I am saying if a dog had an owner who never treated him well, and the dog grew up accustomed to bad treatment and never had any good treatment, the dog would never know any difference between good or bad treatment. It is not until we experience good and bad that we understand good and bad. No one can fully understand something they have never experienced.

(OK so if you are in a room with the door closed with the lights on, and I shine a light on the door that I would make the room dark?)

I have no clue how you come to that conclusion.
I am saying when light is blocked by a solid object it creates shadows. Those shadows are created by a partial absence of light in the area where the light has been blocked by the object. The light in the shadows of an object is never as bright as the light outside of the shadows. Darkness is merely a partial absence of light. The more light that is blocked, the larger or greater the darkness.

[rdventen]

(

(He Jesus is only called the son of man because He took on human flash, but He Jesus was not born of a human man but of God His Father.)

I understand that completely but that does not change the fact that scripture says not to place any trust in the son of man. Your reply is not answering the question but rather dancing around it to try to avoid it. I will repeat the question.
Please answer it .
Was Jesus the son of man or not ? (No. Because you have to have a man and a woman to be born a human, Jesus was a man but not by a man, but by God. There was no man Involved in His birth, He was 100% man and 100% God. It is you who is the one dancing not me I did answer you, you just don't like the answer.) How can a person believe in the Son of God and also not place any trust in the son of man ? ( Human man, born by a man and a woman, just like you and me. )

?(What Jesus is doing here is judging the religious rulers of the Jews, because they were ruling the people unjustly, and not in truth.)

I see no judgment at all in Isa 45:7. I see a simple statement where the Lord admits to being the instigator and creator of all things good as well as evil.
Where is the judgment in the statement? ( Good and Evil are not something that can be created, but you can only take action on, in other words you can do good or you can do evil if you murder that is evil, if you dont it is good. )

(God did create light and darkness, but not evil but as I said God uses evil against its self.)

It appears that you are calling the Lord a liar since Isaiah 45:7 specifically says He created evil. The fact that you think God only uses evil against itself does not change the fact that He created that evil in the first place.
In what way do you see evil being used against itself anyway? In the principles of the bible evil cannot overcome evil, so what purpose does evil serve ? ( True we are not to repay evil with evil, as He God says, but that is not the same as judgment for evil if that were so then why don't we just do away with our laws, and God is the judge over all of us. )

(So what you are saying is that if I have a dog and beat it for a long time then treat that dog good that the dog would appreciate the good more?)

Anyone including dogs or other animals obviously prefer good treatment to bad treatment. However, I am saying if a dog had an owner who never treated him well, and the dog grew up accustomed to bad treatment and never had any good treatment, the dog would never know any difference between good or bad treatment. It is not until we experience good and bad that we understand good and bad. No one can fully understand something they have never experienced. ( That reminds me of a story. There was a man who was hitting himself on the head with a baseball bat, and a man came along and said to the man? Why are you doing that for. And the man said because it feels so good when I stop. Please. )

(OK so if you are in a room with the door closed with the lights on, and I shine a light on the door that I would make the room dark?)

I have no clue how you come to that conclusion.
I am saying when light is blocked by a solid object it creates shadows. Those shadows are created by a partial absence of light in the area where the light has been blocked by the object. The light in the shadows of an object is never as bright as the light outside of the shadows. Darkness is merely a partial absence of light. The more light that is blocked, the larger or greater the darkness.

( I have no problem with that, but words can and are used in many ways, if I say it is raining cats and dogs it does not mean that it is. The same gos for darkness it can be used to to mean evil or light used to mean good, as in the case of God for God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. )

[Skyangel]

You are all over the place with no context. You be much better off to stick to one point and making your point. There is no connection to this fabel you are pushing.

The point and connection between all those scriptures is the fact that Jesus was born of a woman who was in the lineage of David. That is what made Jesus the son of David who was ultimately the son of Adam who was the Son of God.
Check the Geneologies yourself.

The word Adam refers to mankind. According to the bible, Jesus had a human body, He was born from a human body which refers to being born of Adam, does it not?

[Skyangel]

(No. Because you have to have a man and a woman to be born a human, Jesus was a man but not by a man, but by God. There was no man Involved in His birth, He was 100% man and 100% God. It is you who is the one dancing not me I did answer you, you just don't like the answer.)

So you are implying Jesus was not human even though He was a man ? How can anyone be 100% man when he is not conceived and born like a normal human or any other man? That is not 100% man at all. 100% man is a man who is conceived and born in any normal way. How can Jesus also be 100% God when He Himself spoke to His Father. Do you suggest He was talking to Himself?


How can a person believe in the Son of God and also not place any trust in the son of man ?

( Human man, born by a man and a woman, just like you and me. )

The bible makes no such distinction to my knowledge. If you think it does, please show me where it does. Son of man is son of man and Jesus often referred to himself as the son of man. He cannot be God if He is also the son of man according to
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

See that? God is not a man and neither the son of man.

( Good and Evil are not something that can be created, but you can only take action on, in other words you can do good or you can do evil if you murder that is evil, if you dont it is good. )

If anyone does evil, are they not creating evil by their actions? How do you perceive anyone doing evil without creating evil?
Since Isaiah 45:7 specifically tells us God creates evil, are you interpreting that as God does evil things?
The Hebrew word which is used is " bara" which means to create, shape, form, fashion something. The same word in used in the creation of heaven and earth ( Gen 1:1) . So why do you think it is not referring to creating something or bringing it into existence?
Isaiah tells us God created evil and you blatantly say God did not create evil so you are calling the Isaiah a liar, and basically saying scripture is lying, are you not?

( I have no problem with that, but words can and are used in many ways, if I say it is raining cats and dogs it does not mean that it is. The same gos for darkness it can be used to to mean evil or light used to mean good, as in the case of God for God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. )

I understand perfectly that darkness is metaphoric of evil. I understand perfectly that there is no darkness in light but I also understand that light does indeed create darkness. We can literally observe that process in nature itself and in the shadows created by the light.

[Goat]

You are all over the place with no context. You be much better off to stick to one point and making your point. There is no connection to this fabel you are pushing.

The point and connection between all those scriptures is the fact that Jesus was born of a woman who was in the lineage of David. That is what made Jesus the son of David who was ultimately the son of Adam who was the Son of God.
Check the Geneologies yourself.

The word Adam refers to mankind. According to the bible, Jesus had a human body, He was born from a human body which refers to being born of Adam, does it not?

Two points.

Show me where 'Jesus was born to a woman that was in the lineage of David'.

2) Being of the Seed of david in the Jewish religion would have been from an unbroken male lineage. The 'bloodlines' and household pass directly though father to son.