Many discussion have been done about the trinity and the fundamental concept of who God is and how we should understand him to be. The christians say God is three in one Father, Son , and holy spirit. Over the years many have struggled including christians themselves with the concept of the trinity to the point that they have concluded that its a mystery of God. The basic struggle of this concept comes when we ask the question that if these three are one in unity being equal then which one came first? Was it the father? Was it Jesus? Or was it the holy spirit? To christians this may seem as a illogical question but do not laugh because to many the idea of three distinctly separate entities being one always existing from the beginning is very strange and hard to grasp. It is clearly stated in the gospels that jesus was dependent upon the father. Jesus prayed, Jesus did not come to do his will but his fathers and so on. So the topic to be discussed is who came first in the trinity? Please use evidence to support your claim!
P.S. I am not suggesting that someone or something brought God into being I am posing the question to simply Who was there in the beginning first? Who is recognized as the eternal?
The Trinity Who came first???
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muhammad rasullah
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The Trinity Who came first???
Post #1
Last edited by muhammad rasullah on Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"
The Mystery of the Godhead
Post #31[quote="muhammad rasullah"][quote="McCulloch"][quote="muhammad rasullah"]Then this is the problem with christianity if that is the case because it makes no sense. I am not deliberately misundertanding the idea of the trinity, they are deliberately misunderstanding what the bible says. It clearly says that Jesus was the first born of creation? So that goes to say if Jesus was born then there was a time when he wasn't there. You cannot be eternally begotten this statement makes no sense. Beget means to procreate. Create means to bring into existence, eternal means always existed without beginning or end. So you cannot be without beginning or end and being brought into existence at the same time. Its impossible!!!
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I have to agree with you that the whole trinity idea makes no logical sense, it is a true mystery to the majority of the christian world who follow this false traditon, this is because it is nothing more than a dogma which was decreed by Constatine in early 3rd century A.D. inorder to settle contentions between the different christian communities, who's doctrine by that time had already departed from it's original purity. The dogma of the trinity was the conclusion arrived at, based on the fragmented revelations available at the time, AKA the Bible, as well as the political need to reconcile Christianity with Greek Mythology. It is intersting to see so many Christians trying to settle the matter soley by an appeal to the Bible, especially when it has been translated so many times over.
I will now give you the "LDS"version restored through Joseph the Seer, (as I understand it.)
In mormonism the Father, Son , and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings, who are one only in will and purpose.
Consider the following quote "As man now is, God was, as God now is, man may become"
First, let me propose that God is neither outside of time, nor above the laws of the universe, but it is actually by these very laws that he became what he now is, as did also his father before him, and as all others will through out the eternities. This is a fundamental truth we must all know inorder to even begin to understand the true nature of the Godhead. To say that God always was God, and that he is the cause and origin of all existence is I believe a miss reading of the word "Eternal", this term more acturatelly describes the magnitud of his greatness and omnipotence. When Christ refers to himself as the Alpha & Omega, he is not declaring to be the beginning of all existence, much less the end of it, this is actually a reference to his omnisience, meaning he knows all there is to know, and knows the beginning from the end, implying he does not increase in knowledge, and is therefore also unchanging, from everlasting to everlasting. However this Eternal state is a degree of existence which God had to aquire, just as Christ did, and as you and I can also. Eternal Life is said to be the greatest gift of god, that is because man cannot aspire to anything higher than to be as as god is. Yes! to be a God himself, even a SON of God, and not his mere creation. Now on the question of God being without beginning and without end, the same could be said of all beings. Consider another quote "Intellegence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" suggesting that all mankind existed prior to this mortal phase, as a vast something called intelligence, we afterwards were each placed by god into an individual sphere called a spirit, and thus we became free agents, to act for our selves, and were then given the opportunity to increase in glory, just as God recived of his father. Now Jesus being the eldest of God's spirit children obtained a degree of goodhood in premortality, and was therefore involved in all of creation, for by him, for him, and of him the world was created, for he was to be the author and finisher of all salvation. He was chosen and preordained as the Messiah, the only begotten son of the Father IN THE FLESH,. This was the mission which he prepared for through out the eternities, the very same mission which he witnessed the Father fulfill. (John 5:19)"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, the son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the son likewise." Just as the the father had gone through mortality, and suffered the will of his father, had died and resurrected, so did Jesus likewise. Thus the role of the son is an essencial part of the Godhead, since the Father himself could not desend unto men in their flesh, neither could he lay down his own life, he being a resurrected and inmortal being. And so the Son eventually would take the role of the father, and the personage of the Holy Spirit take the role of the Son, in a continual and endless cycle, which is after the order of heaven. Thus the works of God are perpetuated. "For behold, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the inmortality, and eternal life of man." This doctrine of course does imply a plurality of Gods and of worlds, which is considered to be a blasphemy to monotheism, nevertheless this does not change the fact that we have but one God, the Father of our spirits, and one savior and redeemer of our soul, even Jesus Christ.
Think about it, we all come from a mortal father, the fact that he also has a father doesn't make him any less our father.
In conclusion as to the question of who was first, the father or the son, you might as well ask:which came first, the chicken or the egg?
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I have to agree with you that the whole trinity idea makes no logical sense, it is a true mystery to the majority of the christian world who follow this false traditon, this is because it is nothing more than a dogma which was decreed by Constatine in early 3rd century A.D. inorder to settle contentions between the different christian communities, who's doctrine by that time had already departed from it's original purity. The dogma of the trinity was the conclusion arrived at, based on the fragmented revelations available at the time, AKA the Bible, as well as the political need to reconcile Christianity with Greek Mythology. It is intersting to see so many Christians trying to settle the matter soley by an appeal to the Bible, especially when it has been translated so many times over.
I will now give you the "LDS"version restored through Joseph the Seer, (as I understand it.)
In mormonism the Father, Son , and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings, who are one only in will and purpose.
Consider the following quote "As man now is, God was, as God now is, man may become"
First, let me propose that God is neither outside of time, nor above the laws of the universe, but it is actually by these very laws that he became what he now is, as did also his father before him, and as all others will through out the eternities. This is a fundamental truth we must all know inorder to even begin to understand the true nature of the Godhead. To say that God always was God, and that he is the cause and origin of all existence is I believe a miss reading of the word "Eternal", this term more acturatelly describes the magnitud of his greatness and omnipotence. When Christ refers to himself as the Alpha & Omega, he is not declaring to be the beginning of all existence, much less the end of it, this is actually a reference to his omnisience, meaning he knows all there is to know, and knows the beginning from the end, implying he does not increase in knowledge, and is therefore also unchanging, from everlasting to everlasting. However this Eternal state is a degree of existence which God had to aquire, just as Christ did, and as you and I can also. Eternal Life is said to be the greatest gift of god, that is because man cannot aspire to anything higher than to be as as god is. Yes! to be a God himself, even a SON of God, and not his mere creation. Now on the question of God being without beginning and without end, the same could be said of all beings. Consider another quote "Intellegence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" suggesting that all mankind existed prior to this mortal phase, as a vast something called intelligence, we afterwards were each placed by god into an individual sphere called a spirit, and thus we became free agents, to act for our selves, and were then given the opportunity to increase in glory, just as God recived of his father. Now Jesus being the eldest of God's spirit children obtained a degree of goodhood in premortality, and was therefore involved in all of creation, for by him, for him, and of him the world was created, for he was to be the author and finisher of all salvation. He was chosen and preordained as the Messiah, the only begotten son of the Father IN THE FLESH,. This was the mission which he prepared for through out the eternities, the very same mission which he witnessed the Father fulfill. (John 5:19)"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, the son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the son likewise." Just as the the father had gone through mortality, and suffered the will of his father, had died and resurrected, so did Jesus likewise. Thus the role of the son is an essencial part of the Godhead, since the Father himself could not desend unto men in their flesh, neither could he lay down his own life, he being a resurrected and inmortal being. And so the Son eventually would take the role of the father, and the personage of the Holy Spirit take the role of the Son, in a continual and endless cycle, which is after the order of heaven. Thus the works of God are perpetuated. "For behold, this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the inmortality, and eternal life of man." This doctrine of course does imply a plurality of Gods and of worlds, which is considered to be a blasphemy to monotheism, nevertheless this does not change the fact that we have but one God, the Father of our spirits, and one savior and redeemer of our soul, even Jesus Christ.
Think about it, we all come from a mortal father, the fact that he also has a father doesn't make him any less our father.
In conclusion as to the question of who was first, the father or the son, you might as well ask:which came first, the chicken or the egg?
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muhammad rasullah
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Post #32
Okay lets put more emphasis on the God statements in the verse since jesus is the word and Jesus is God lets just simplify the statement by substituting some words.litewave wrote:John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.muhammad rasullah wrote:You are merely playing with words my friend confusing people to what it actually means. What does the bible say about who was there in the beginning when there was nothing? Who was it? Was it Jesus, God, or the holy spirit?litewave wrote:The Trinity is the source of all things. I imagine it as an eternal, timeless potential from which all things spring into temporal existence. Father is the undifferentiated, primordial unity of all things; Son is the potential for differentiation of these things from the undifferentiated unity; and Holy Spirit is the potential for unification of differentiated things with the undifferentiated unity. When the Trinity goes into action, differentiation of things begins, as well as time, in which the differentiation happens.
The Word is the Son, second person of the Trinity.
And here is the birth of Jesus of Nazareth:
John 1:14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and the God was God.
Sounds funny doesn't it. I am not doing this to mock you but just to let you see that your just playing with words...Trying to make something appear there where it isn't. How can God be with God?
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"
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muhammad rasullah
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Post #33
Really God was made a man...That's not what the bible says numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:litewave wrote:Well, obviously for Christian theologians there is a difference between "beget" and "create". Look here, this is from Nicene Creed:muhammad rasullah wrote:You cannot be eternally begotten this statement makes no sense. Beget means to procreate. Create means to bring into existence, eternal means always existed without beginning or end. So you cannot be without beginning or end and being brought into existence at the same time. Its impossible!!!
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
But the birth of Jesus was a different thing (Nicene Creed continued):
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
If you want to know what begotten means just look up the word.
beget-1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; -- commonly said of the father.
Procreate- to beget offspring, to produce; bring into being.
Your basically saying that God brought himself into existence!
He came down from heaven! really do you remember what jesus said
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Now Jesus was talking to his disciples and they where watching him and listening to him speak to them...So either the disciples are crazy for believing that Jesus is God after saying this...or they never did! And your crazy for thinking he is God after he said this.
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"
Post #34
I think you're equivocating between existence and material existence. God existed before the material aspect did.muhammad rasullah wrote:Really God was made a man...That's not what the bible says numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:litewave wrote:Well, obviously for Christian theologians there is a difference between "beget" and "create". Look here, this is from Nicene Creed:muhammad rasullah wrote:You cannot be eternally begotten this statement makes no sense. Beget means to procreate. Create means to bring into existence, eternal means always existed without beginning or end. So you cannot be without beginning or end and being brought into existence at the same time. Its impossible!!!
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
But the birth of Jesus was a different thing (Nicene Creed continued):
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
If you want to know what begotten means just look up the word.
beget-1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; -- commonly said of the father.
Procreate- to beget offspring, to produce; bring into being.
Your basically saying that God brought himself into existence!
He didn't say that they hadn't heard God's voice, only that they hadn't heard the Father's voice. Jesus and the Father are not the same "person".He came down from heaven! really do you remember what jesus said
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Now Jesus was talking to his disciples and they where watching him and listening to him speak to them...So either the disciples are crazy for believing that Jesus is God after saying this...or they never did! And your crazy for thinking he is God after he said this.
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muhammad rasullah
- Sage
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Post #35
The father is God, God is the Father!! Am I missing something here. Who else was Jesus talking about when he said you have neither heard HIS voice at anytime nor seen HIS shape?Skyler wrote:I think you're equivocating between existence and material existence. God existed before the material aspect did.muhammad rasullah wrote:Really God was made a man...That's not what the bible says numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:litewave wrote:Well, obviously for Christian theologians there is a difference between "beget" and "create". Look here, this is from Nicene Creed:muhammad rasullah wrote:You cannot be eternally begotten this statement makes no sense. Beget means to procreate. Create means to bring into existence, eternal means always existed without beginning or end. So you cannot be without beginning or end and being brought into existence at the same time. Its impossible!!!
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
But the birth of Jesus was a different thing (Nicene Creed continued):
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
If you want to know what begotten means just look up the word.
beget-1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; -- commonly said of the father.
Procreate- to beget offspring, to produce; bring into being.
Your basically saying that God brought himself into existence!
He didn't say that they hadn't heard God's voice, only that they hadn't heard the Father's voice. Jesus and the Father are not the same "person".He came down from heaven! really do you remember what jesus said
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Now Jesus was talking to his disciples and they where watching him and listening to him speak to them...So either the disciples are crazy for believing that Jesus is God after saying this...or they never did! And your crazy for thinking he is God after he said this.
Who is this HIS Jesus is talking about? WHo is then if it isn't the Father, God?
Jesus and the father are not the same person? So you don't believe Jesus is God? Do you believe in the trinity?
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"
Post #36
The traditional concept of the of the so-called "Christian" trinity is a fabrication of the Nicean Creed based on political/church maneuvering and an attempt to appease the polytheistic/mystic governing body.muhammad rasullah wrote:The father is God, God is the Father!! Am I missing something here. Who else was Jesus talking about when he said you have neither heard HIS voice at anytime nor seen HIS shape?Skyler wrote:I think you're equivocating between existence and material existence. God existed before the material aspect did.muhammad rasullah wrote:Really God was made a man...That's not what the bible says numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:litewave wrote:Well, obviously for Christian theologians there is a difference between "beget" and "create". Look here, this is from Nicene Creed:muhammad rasullah wrote:You cannot be eternally begotten this statement makes no sense. Beget means to procreate. Create means to bring into existence, eternal means always existed without beginning or end. So you cannot be without beginning or end and being brought into existence at the same time. Its impossible!!!
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
But the birth of Jesus was a different thing (Nicene Creed continued):
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
If you want to know what begotten means just look up the word.
beget-1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; -- commonly said of the father.
Procreate- to beget offspring, to produce; bring into being.
Your basically saying that God brought himself into existence!
He didn't say that they hadn't heard God's voice, only that they hadn't heard the Father's voice. Jesus and the Father are not the same "person".He came down from heaven! really do you remember what jesus said
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Now Jesus was talking to his disciples and they where watching him and listening to him speak to them...So either the disciples are crazy for believing that Jesus is God after saying this...or they never did! And your crazy for thinking he is God after he said this.
Who is this HIS Jesus is talking about? WHo is then if it isn't the Father, God?
Jesus and the father are not the same person? So you don't believe Jesus is God? Do you believe in the trinity?
Important to note that Christ says "And this is life eternal to know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent".
If eternal life is the purpose of knowing them, then I want to know. I believe the simple notion that they are indeed three separate beings, although one in purpose. Anything else, like the traditional one-in-three, three-in-one answer, is confusing at best and leads to difficulty in understanding how to worship.
Is is much easier to believe and comprehend that Jesus was not praying to himself in the Garden, in the Temple, on the Mount, etc, but rather to his Heavenly Father.
In Old Testament times, Jesus, in a pre-mortal life certainly could have played a role in governing the affairs of this earth - but that is another matter entirely.
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muhammad rasullah
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Post #37
I accept that Jesus (pbuh) is one in purpose with God because he came to do God's will as all the prophet's did.Eph wrote:The traditional concept of the of the so-called "Christian" trinity is a fabrication of the Nicean Creed based on political/church maneuvering and an attempt to appease the polytheistic/mystic governing body.muhammad rasullah wrote:The father is God, God is the Father!! Am I missing something here. Who else was Jesus talking about when he said you have neither heard HIS voice at anytime nor seen HIS shape?Skyler wrote:I think you're equivocating between existence and material existence. God existed before the material aspect did.muhammad rasullah wrote:Really God was made a man...That's not what the bible says numbers 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:litewave wrote:Well, obviously for Christian theologians there is a difference between "beget" and "create". Look here, this is from Nicene Creed:muhammad rasullah wrote:You cannot be eternally begotten this statement makes no sense. Beget means to procreate. Create means to bring into existence, eternal means always existed without beginning or end. So you cannot be without beginning or end and being brought into existence at the same time. Its impossible!!!
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
But the birth of Jesus was a different thing (Nicene Creed continued):
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
If you want to know what begotten means just look up the word.
beget-1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; -- commonly said of the father.
Procreate- to beget offspring, to produce; bring into being.
Your basically saying that God brought himself into existence!
He didn't say that they hadn't heard God's voice, only that they hadn't heard the Father's voice. Jesus and the Father are not the same "person".He came down from heaven! really do you remember what jesus said
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Now Jesus was talking to his disciples and they where watching him and listening to him speak to them...So either the disciples are crazy for believing that Jesus is God after saying this...or they never did! And your crazy for thinking he is God after he said this.
Who is this HIS Jesus is talking about? WHo is then if it isn't the Father, God?
Jesus and the father are not the same person? So you don't believe Jesus is God? Do you believe in the trinity?
Important to note that Christ says "And this is life eternal to know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent".
If eternal life is the purpose of knowing them, then I want to know. I believe the simple notion that they are indeed three separate beings, although one in purpose. Anything else, like the traditional one-in-three, three-in-one answer, is confusing at best and leads to difficulty in understanding how to worship.
Is is much easier to believe and comprehend that Jesus was not praying to himself in the Garden, in the Temple, on the Mount, etc, but rather to his Heavenly Father.
In Old Testament times, Jesus, in a pre-mortal life certainly could have played a role in governing the affairs of this earth - but that is another matter entirely.
So if you dont believe in the trinity meaning the father being God, Jesus being God, and the holy spirit being God and all of them being one then you don't believe this verse from the bible referring to jesus.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Do you believe this is referring to jesus?
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Do you believe this verse is referring to jesus and if not then who?
Do you believe Jesus created everything or did God?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And since you believe Jesus is not God then who do you believe Jesus is?
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"
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muhammad rasullah
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Post #39
What is the purpose of this post?litewave wrote:
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"
