What is the message of 1 Corinthians 11 wrt women?

[McCulloch]

[...] I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. [...] [Man] is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.[...]
However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
1 Corinthians 11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

Question for debate: What is the message that the writer is trying to convey about the relation between men and women? Ensure that your answer takes into account textual, theological and cultural context.

[Confused]

Great Post!

I'm glad someone took notice.
This guy continues to steer conversations off topic
with his knocking of Christianity.
Expect what you give!

MODERATOR NOTE:

InTheFlesh, it is great to find another poster who agrees with your opinions, but that in no way grants you the rights to make comments about other posters. As you are guilty of starting a post that can easily take this thread off topic right here, you should realize that most are taken off topics with personal opinions and inappropriate taunts. In the future, feel free to PM those posters you feel deserve compliments for their posts, but please, keep it out of the threads.

[InTheFlesh]

[...] I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. [...] [Man] is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.[...]
However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
1 Corinthians 11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

Question for debate: What is the message that the writer is trying to convey about the relation between men and women? Ensure that your answer takes into account textual, theological and cultural context.

I think the message
is to love your wife as yourself.
Don't we love ourselves?
So ought we to love our wives.

[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
[28] So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
[29] For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
[30] For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
[32] This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
[33] Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

[InTheFlesh]

Great Post!

I'm glad someone took notice.
This guy continues to steer conversations off topic
with his knocking of Christianity.
Expect what you give!

MODERATOR NOTE:

InTheFlesh, it is great to find another poster who agrees with your opinions, but that in no way grants you the rights to make comments about other posters. As you are guilty of starting a post that can easily take this thread off topic right here, you should realize that most are taken off topics with personal opinions and inappropriate taunts. In the future, feel free to PM those posters you feel deserve compliments for their posts, but please, keep it out of the threads.

The word of God
is not an "opinion".
It's rooted and grounded in truth!

BTW,
Are you serious about this one?

In the future, feel free to PM those posters you feel deserve compliments for their posts, but please, keep it out of the threads.

Is this not common practice here?

[Confused]

Great Post!

I'm glad someone took notice.
This guy continues to steer conversations off topic
with his knocking of Christianity.
Expect what you give!

MODERATOR NOTE:

InTheFlesh, it is great to find another poster who agrees with your opinions, but that in no way grants you the rights to make comments about other posters. As you are guilty of starting a post that can easily take this thread off topic right here, you should realize that most are taken off topics with personal opinions and inappropriate taunts. In the future, feel free to PM those posters you feel deserve compliments for their posts, but please, keep it out of the threads.

The word of God
is not an "opinion".
It's rooted and grounded in truth!

BTW,
Are you serious about this one?

In the future, feel free to PM those posters you feel deserve compliments for their posts, but please, keep it out of the threads.

Is this not common practice here?

First: If you wish to challenge a comment by a moderator, do it via PM, as per rules.

Second: Your opinion of a poster who is leading threads off topic etc... is NOT Gods word, it is yours. And I don't care if it is truth or not, two wrongs don't make a right.

I won't even bother with what you consider "common practice". Rather, I will simply provide you with a link to the forum rules:

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6

[McCulloch]

I think the message
is to love your wife as yourself.
Don't we love ourselves?
So ought we to love our wives.

The message that married men should love their wives is indeed in the epistles. Also that you should be fair and kind to your slaves. But still, the message of the passages in question is that men have a responsibility to lead and to have authority over women, because women are to be less trusted then men.

That is sexism. Perhaps a form of sexism that is paternalistic and well-intended, but it is sexism nonetheless. Sexism is sanctioned in the Bible, therefore it must be good. Or at least it must be able to be practiced in a good way. God, the Father not Mother, is fundamentally sexist.

[faith]

[...] I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. [...] [Man] is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.[...]
However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
1 Corinthians 11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

Question for debate: What is the message that the writer is trying to convey about the relation between men and women? Ensure that your answer takes into account textual, theological and cultural context.

Sure that someone has already most likely pointed this out.
Paul also taught that in Christ there is no difference between Male and Female, Jew and gentile. What most men do not take into account when read Pauls teaching on men and women is his other teachings. When you see the point of the teachings you see that Paul is speaking about women in their roles as wives and also a Christian equals in Christ.

In the word we see men and women all receive the Holy Spirit. those in Spirit do not need teaching.(1 John 2:27) They share with each other what the Spirit gives them, be it a man or a woman. Women did not teach gentiles or Jews who were no yet in Spirit for the obvious dangers which would become present in doing this.

Joel 2:28 (King James Version)
28.And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Each person in Spirit would be sharing their visions with those in Spirit whether male or female. Paul did not allow women to teach those not in Spirit not because of their sex but the dangers it would place women in. A wife was to be submissive to her Christian husband and he was to love her like Christ loves the Church and as he would love his own body. Enough to lay down his life for her.
Christian marriage is likened unto Christ and the Church.

The christians who often read the teachings in the bible fail to base them on all that Paul teaches. Women are treated as equal in Spirit and in Faith. Christian men only have authority over their own wives and children. They do not have auhtority over other mens wives and children. Women would share their messages and their gifts within the church. The Christians met together and shared what the Spirit gave to them. Paul also taught that he did not give to those he was teaching (still requiring milk) the teachings for those eating meat as they would not understand.
Those being taught requiring Milk was not yet fully indwelt by the Spirit. Women were not allowed to teach these people. But when those in Spirit met together they shared what the Spirit gave to them. Also Paul was teaching gentiles and they had never had the same teachings about women as the Jews had in the Old Testament.

Love Faith.xx (just a quickie)

[McCulloch]

Paul also taught that in Christ there is no difference between Male and Female

But Paul also taught that women are the glory of man and man is the glory of Christ. Being an unbeliever, I am willing to admit that Paul contradicted himself or that maybe the writings were not authentically Paul and were certainly not inspired by God.

How do you deal with the apparent contradiction?

[Thought Criminal]

Hi TC,

I have to disagree with your characterization here. Paul's view regarding women (and specifically Christian women) is best expressed in Galatians...

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal. 3:28

In his letters Paul sends quite cordial greetings to women leaders of house ekklesia, like Phoebe or Lydia.

We can be cordial to our inferiors, and we can preach equality on one hand and subservience on the other. I think you can find both types of messages in Paul. In my experience, good people manage to find the good ones, bad people manage to find the bad. Take this as a compliment, then, not a disagreement.

Paul expected Jesus to return at any minute, making marriage a waste of time. Animosity toward women had nothing to do with it. There are instances where it appears that Paul is down on women, but these are easily dismissed (only not in this subforum, due to it's restrictions regarding the absolute infallibility of each and every syllable of "God's Word" )

Which is why I barely speak in this forum. It's pointless.

TC

[faith]

Paul also taught that in Christ there is no difference between Male and Female

But Paul also taught that women are the glory of man and man is the glory of Christ. Being an unbeliever, I am willing to admit that Paul contradicted himself or that maybe the writings were not authentically Paul and were certainly not inspired by God.

How do you deal with the apparent contradiction?

Hi Mack,

There is not a contradiction. I may not have been too clear in my post.
What does it mean to be the glory of man and man the glory of Christ?
One is not reflective of submission but rather the acknowledgement that God is Father of all and in his wisdom he created man first. Then he created woman from the man. Man was made for the purpose of living with and knowing God. Woman was made to know man and to be his companion. But both as subject to Christ and the Father as equal heirs.

As I a woman I do not fined being submissive in an obedient way to a husband as bad. If the husband is obedient to God and submissive to him in his life. One reflects the glory of the other.

The problem is that teachers are only needed where people do not know the full truth and are not being taught fully by the Spirit. Once they come to this stage they are being taught by God. You cannot ignore the facts that Paul taught that some were still requiring milk when they should be eating meat.
Vicars were manmade priests whilst all believers priest and working Gods purpose through.
I will have to finish this tomorrow feeling very tired and not thinking clearly. 12.30am here. I ill correct anything later.

Love Faith.xx

[Dragon]

As a woman I do not find being submissive in an obedient way to a husband as bad.

You use the words 'submissive' and 'obedient' as a description of the correct relationship between wife and husband.

But both as subject to Christ and the Father as equal heirs.

If you are both 'equal heirs' why does one of you have to be submissive and obedient to the other?