Judas: Chosen, or Traitor?

[RockerunderGod]

The Gospels tell us blankly that Judas was a traitor to the Christ, who openly allowed Judas to "betray" him and allowed the disciples to deny him. But if one looks at Jesus' mission, the question is raised: could Jesus' mission, to die, be sacrificed (being the Lamb) for all of mankind, have been fulfilled if Judas had not handed him over?

Judas was the money handler and the negotiator of the Christ and the apostles, so would he not be fit to hand Christ over? Would Christ have not chosen him, knowing the mission He was about to fulfill? Also, doesn't the claim that Jesus was betrayed denounce the fact that Jesus could not be and cannot be undermined or defeated? Ultimately the question is this: Did Yeshua the Christ, in fact, CHOOSE Judas Iscariot to hand Him over so He could fulfill the mission?

Here's something to remember: the gospels were written by the apostles, who were Men and thus imperfect. From their point of view, perhaps, Judas betrayed Jesus. But then again, the Gospels are divinely inspired. So that raises another question: Could the Imperfection of the apostles have been leaked into their writings? Could the Gospels be slightly biased against some figures in the Bible?

NOTE: I am a Christian. I am not answering any of these questions because I already know the answers, and what you guess I believe is most likely wrong, because I have a Christian rock upon which I build. Metaphorically, that means that my beliefs are based off of Christianity, TRUE Christianity, but have differentiated aspects.

[Goat]

It cuts to the heart of the matter. How do you know which account is true?

Well, since I don't know Greek and Hebrew, and am not a highly trained biblical scholar, much of it comes down to trust. Trusting the most widely accepted account of Judas, translated by godly scholars from the original Byzantine Textus Receptus, or "Received Text", where they have found hundreds of matching manuscripts would be a very wise choice. Wouldn't you say?

Not only that, but you can look right into the Bible and read just a short portion, and see that it is supernatural, God-inspired, and life-changing. Not to mention the many prophecies by godly people from all different areas of the globe, and how they match up perfectly to later occurrences.

If you use your same fallacious logic, then I could argue that Julius Ceasar never existed. We have no pictures, just records and eyewitness accounts. I could question the validity of every one of those accounts, and say every record is a fraud. Of course that would be absurd because I agree there are people who are much better historians than I, and I believe what they tell me, and that the records they kept are authentic.

The same goes for the Bible.

Well, I can see that you don't understand the placebo effect, nor do you have the proper understanding of how prophecies work. You see, the 'Christian' prophecies work by yanking lines out of the Jewish scripture , out of context, or written to, or even mistranslated to mean 'it's about Jesus'. If you read it in context, with a proper translation, it does mean what Christians say it means.

[Andymc7]

You can point to all the other passages about pharaoh you want, that does not negate Exodus 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

I agree, but you must have not read Exodus 9. Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, God gave him plenty of chances, and then his chances ran out. That's called free will.
Is this the only account you can think of, by the way?

And what IS the 'real' holy bible?? The Gnostic one? The Jewish one? The catholic one? The protestant one? The Nigerian Orthodox Bible? The Jehovah WItnesses bible? Shall we Include the "Book of the Mormon" so many people in Utah do?

*sigh*.. read what I just posted in response to McCulloch. I'm finished with the "validity of the Bible" debate. It's irrelevant to the topic. Can someone who believes the real scripture please comment on this topic? I don't want to keep repeating myself

[McCulloch]

It cuts to the heart of the matter. How do you know which account is true?

Not only that, but you can look right into the Bible and read just a short portion, and see that it is supernatural, God-inspired, and life-changing. Not to mention the many prophecies by godly people from all different areas of the globe, and how they match up perfectly to later occurrences.

We are getting off topic. Let's continue this theme here.

[Andymc7]

You see, the 'Christian' prophecies work by yanking lines out of the Jewish scripture , out of context, or written to, or even mistranslated to mean 'it's about Jesus'. If you read it in context, with a proper translation, it does mean what Christians say it means.

Prove that Christians use "Jewish" scripture.

Give an example of them using prophesies out of context.

Give an example of mistranslated prophesies.

How do you decide what proper translation is?

You see, unless you are a biblical scholar, this debate is useless to the topic. And I'm repeating myself like I didn't want to do... so I may opt out of this topic altogether. It's becoming stagnant.

[Goat]

You can point to all the other passages about pharaoh you want, that does not negate Exodus 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

I agree, but you must have not read Exodus 9. Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, God gave him plenty of chances, and then his chances ran out. That's called free will.
Is this the only account you can think of, by the way?

And what IS the 'real' holy bible?? The Gnostic one? The Jewish one? The catholic one? The protestant one? The Nigerian Orthodox Bible? The Jehovah WItnesses bible? Shall we Include the "Book of the Mormon" so many people in Utah do?

*sigh*.. read what I just posted in response to McCulloch. I'm finished with the "validity of the Bible" debate. It's irrelevant to the topic. Can someone who believes the real scripture please comment on this topic? I don't want to keep repeating myself

No, but I want to see you justify exodus 10:27. .. you have not except by handwaving and ignoring.

And, you are makign the claim about the "real" bible here. Back up your claim.

[Andymc7]

No, but I want to see you justify exodus 10:27. .. you have not except by handwaving and ignoring.

Not true. I fully acknowledge exodus 10:27. God hardens Pharaoh's heart, because Pharaoh first hardened his time and time again. This doesn't debunk free will, it just proves God knew Pharaoh more than Pharaoh knew himself.

And, you are makign the claim about the "real" bible here. Back up your claim.

I already did, read my previous posts.

[Goat]

No, but I want to see you justify exodus 10:27. .. you have not except by handwaving and ignoring.

Not true. I fully acknowledge exodus 10:27. God hardens Pharaoh's heart, because Pharaoh first hardened his time and time again. This doesn't debunk free will, it just proves God knew Pharaoh more than Pharaoh knew himself.

And, you are makign the claim about the "real" bible here. Back up your claim.

I already did, read my previous posts.

No, you didn't back up your claim.. you just made unsupported assertions that 'Your' bible was right, and all other bibles were 'false'. That is not backing up a claim.

As for 'god knew Pharaoh better than Pharaoh knew himself' is one of the most uninspired diversions I have seen. It does not address the words of the bible at all.

[Andymc7]

No, you didn't back up your claim.. you just made unsupported assertions that 'Your' bible was right, and all other bibles were 'false'. That is not backing up a claim.

It's not my Bible, it's the Bible. And it's funny that you won't accept my support for the Bible, yet I haven't read a shred of evidence against it. Once again, I'm not a scholar, and this is not a debate of the Bible. For the last time, it's about Judas Iscariot.

As for 'god knew Pharaoh better than Pharaoh knew himself' is one of the most uninspired diversions I have seen. It does not address the words of the bible at all.

You make claims without giving support. Why would you claim to know what the words of the Bible are, when you don't even believe it's the "true" Bible? You're backing up your argument with something you don't believe is true. It's now clear to me that you're only arguing for the sake of arguing.


Judas was a traitor, it's easy to see by The Bible. We are going in circles so I will talk to yall in another topic, and will be praying for you.

Andy

[Goat]

No, you didn't back up your claim.. you just made unsupported assertions that 'Your' bible was right, and all other bibles were 'false'. That is not backing up a claim.

It's not my Bible, it's the Bible. And it's funny that you won't accept my support for the Bible, yet I haven't read a shred of evidence against it. Once again, I'm not a scholar, and this is not a debate of the Bible. For the last time, it's about Judas Iscariot.

And, according to the Gospel of Judas, he was chosen, not a traitor. That scripture is very clear on it.
[/quote]

As for 'god knew Pharaoh better than Pharaoh knew himself' is one of the most uninspired diversions I have seen. It does not address the words of the bible at all.

You make claims without giving support. Why would you claim to know what the words of the Bible are, when you don't even believe it's the "true" Bible? You're backing up your argument with something you don't believe is true. It's now clear to me that you're only arguing for the sake of arguing.


Judas was a traitor, it's easy to see by The Bible. We are going in circles so I will talk to yall in another topic, and will be praying for you.

Andy[/quote]

Well.. give an exact quote in the bible that says "judas was a traitor" , and how does that superceed the copitc text of "The Gospel Of Judas", which shows he wasn't?

[ken1burton]

When you quote parts of the New Testament, Which has the writer quoting Old Testament Scripture, The Quote has to be searched to see if that is what was really said. Quoting the New Testament verse, assuming the verse is correct or that it fits where it is being placed causes errors of Doctrine.

Because all prophecies are fulfilled the day of the Cross, Matthew placed a lot of “fulfilling this prophecy� wrong.

Like Rahel weeping for the Children:

Jeremiah 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

Notice how God says they will come again from the land of the enemy? Does not fit a slaughter of children in Bethlehem does it?

Here is what Rahel is weeping about:

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Jewish People or Children of Israel did n ot come through Christ, So when Jesus said “No man cometh unto the Father, But by Me.� they are all spiritually dead, or as they “Are not�.

Outer Darkness is the Second day or time period for the day of the Cross from Midnight to sunrise. God makes who is in charge the HEAD, Who is under who is in charge the Tail. Jesus is the HEAD of the first 6-hours from sunset to Midnight, Then Judas and the 144 with Him are in Charge or the HEAD of the Second 6-hour period.

Jesus then as the TAIL or (BEHEADED for the Word of God) cast down a third of the stars (Stars of heaven seen as the seed of Abraham) because this looks at the day as 1 of three pictures, All will be cast out in all three pictures.

The Second beast with 6-wings has the face of a Calf, Second seal is the Red Horse, Together they form the Red Heifer, Had to be BEHEADED, God’s word like as a fire (Jeremiah 23:29) provides the ashes of the Red Heifer needed to cleans the House, Day of the Cross as a house built using the 7 time periods as pillars:

Proverbs 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

Ken

A SOUL is the physical life of a person, So a SOUL can die:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


The day of the Cross, God had to set something up which was misunderstood by Israel and it seems unfair when read:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

So a wicked person all his life lives that way, at the last moment, Turns and dies as a righteous person in the sight of God, No wickedness is ever mentioned.

And a righteous person all his life lives that way and at the last moment changes and dies as a wicked person, No righteousness will ever be mentioned about them.

This has to be set up as Jesus takes our Iniquity, and Jesus who lived Righteous dies as Wicked, Mankind who all as sheep (seen as wicked in Jeremiah 12:1/3) lived wicked, Then with the righteousness of Christ on them, and all their iniquity already taken away by Isaiah 53:6 then all die as righteous. And the wickedness is never mentioned.

So that LAST MOMENT change was a set-up for Jesus the day of the Cross, With all mankind becoming righteous and Jesus becoming the man of sin, with all sin on Him, Past and present sins then paid for “With His stripes we are healed. Then Jesus takes Future sins to Golgotha. Dies a Sinner, Which gets Him the keys to death and hell He need to get there and be there the third day when all are taken out:

Zechariah 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, Jesus physically died, Tasted death for us all, The people are as waters, The Still waters in Psalms 23 is Jesus being lead into hell, THEN “He restoreth My Soul� or is given physical life again.

Because the day is seen as 3 pictures, Then the psalms goes on talking about the Shadow of death or looking at death again.