Trinity

[Ross]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

[Runner]

Hi Runner,
Thanks for your thought provoking input.
I am guessing you are of the Modalist persuasion?

Nope.

[2ndpillar2]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

I would suggest that it was established at the Nicene Council convened by the Roman emperor Constantine (beast with two horns like a lamb) in 325 A.D., and became authoritarian by the decree of the Roman emperor Theodosius in 380 A.D. .

Tertullian, in his Adversus Praxeas (c. 210 A.D.), defended the doctrine of the trinity, and described the doctrine as referring to one God who exists in the three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This means that the doctrine of the Trinity was established more than a century before the Nicene Council. More than that, Tertullian defend the doctrine; he did not create it. So by the start of the 3rd century the doctrine not only existed, but it was well established enough to have critics and to be defended by one of the most prominent writers of the day.

The idea that the doctrine of the Trinity was established at the Nicene Council cannot be considered historically accurate.

Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea because of the turmoil being raised, in his empire, between the different factions regarding the Trinity. Even during the process, the ruling went both ways, and finally ended with the Trinity doctrine, which was upheld by the power of Rome, and made authoritarian by the Theodosius in 380 A.D. So you see, the tare seed, the message of the "enemy"/"evil one"/"devil" (Matthew 13) is upheld by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", Constantine, whose power via his Roman church, will last until time, times, and half a time (Daniel 7:25), whereas it will then be "annihilated and destroyed forever". Your Tertullian, would no doubt be listed among the "shepherds", or "fat" shepherds, who did not feed, nor heal the sheep per Ezekiel 34:16, and will be judged accordingly. Whereas the "LORD" will then judge between "one sheep and another", and then "set" over them "one shepherd" "My servant David" (Ezekiel 34:23-24).

[Miles]

Where did this concept come from?

From the World History Encyclopedia

Tertullian (155-200 CE) was the first to use the Latin term 'trinity'. He described it as a "divine economy" as in the household or monarchy of God. God the Father laid out the divine plan, God the Son carried out the will of the Father, and God the Spirit motivated the will of God in believers (Adversus Praxean, 27). . . .

In 312 CE, Roman emperor Constantine I (r. 306-337 CE) converted to Christianity and simultaneously became head of the Christian Church. He promoted the unity of belief throughout the empire. The concept of the Trinity could have remained an intellectual endeavor only, but a controversy emerged in the city of Alexandria that spilled over into other cities (318-321 CE). Arius, a presbyter in Alexandria taught that if one believed that God created everything, then at one time, he must have created Christ. Indeed, the very terms the Father and the Son indicated that Christ was subordinate to God. The bishop of Alexandria excommunicated Arius, but other church leaders took his side. Riots broke out among the various factions in different cities.

In 325 CE, Constantine called for an empire-wide council to resolve the matter. The challenge was to articulate the way in which the oneness of God was also found in his transcendence (through the power of the Spirit) and his incarnate nature (taking on flesh in the Son). The meeting was held in Nicaea, near the new capital of Constantinople that was still in progress. Roughly 217 bishops attended along with their entourages. . . .

The debates on the Trinity were quite esoteric and included philosophical ideas of the universe. Was Christ homo-ousios, a being like the Father, or was he homoi-ousios, of the identical essence of the Father? Note that the difference is in an iota, a subtle difference in the Greek. The Council opted for the second choice in that God and Christ were identical in essence and that Christ was a manifestation of God himself on earth. Beyond the esoteric theology, however, the practical implication for the choice of Christ being identical to the essence of God was that it theoretically kept the monotheism of traditional Judaism intact. Having Christ identical to God, confirmed the view that Christ was pre-existent and helped to create the universe.
source and much more

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The problem with these extra-biblical sources is that they don't align with Scripture, then or now.

Then just what scripture says:

"The trinity was created around the time the Roman Catholic Church was created in order to mix existing pagan beliefs with Christian concepts.

The Roman Catholic Church was created because Christianity could not be destroyed any other way, though they tried desperately. It was intended, and is still employed, as a counterfeit to supplant the True church; and it taught, and still teaches, nothing but heresy."

.............. ?

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[Runner]

Then just what scripture says:

I didn't claim my personal explanation was Sola Scriptura, but it is far more supported by Scripture than the quotes from your extra-biblical authors.

It's ok. We don't have to agree.

But the onus is on you to produce Scripture that supports a concept taught anywhere in the Bible that God is three people.

God bless.

[tigger 2]

Where did this concept come from?

I would suggest it began with John 1:1

.................................................

“Where did this concept come from?”


http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/ - see "History of the Trinity Doctrine (HIST)"

“I would suggest it began with John 1:1”


http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/ - See: "John 1:1c Primer"

Hi Tigger,
I would very much like to discuss these matters with you, but not if you simply ask me to read J.W.ORG propaganda.
Are you able to put these points or even one of them into your own words please?

.........................................
Hi, Ross,
These studies on "Examining the Trinity" are my own personal studies and are in my own words. I finished my own study of John's grammar concerning John 1:1c before I became a JW. In fact, it, and a few other personal studies, helped me decide to become a JW. I studied it in the 70's and initially wrote the first and largest version (DEF) of what I discovered on a typewriter.

The words are mine and are based on NT Greek grammar rules found in respected trinitarian NT Greek Grammars (sources are cited).

The blog is not connected in any way with JW.Org.

[Miles]

Then just what scripture says:

I didn't claim my personal explanation was Sola Scriptura, but it is far more supported by Scripture than the quotes from your extra-biblical authors.

Then cite the supporting scripture you say exists.

But the onus is on you to produce Scripture that supports a concept taught anywhere in the Bible that God is three people.

Why? I never said there was any such scripture. All I did was answer Ross's question: "Where did this concept come from?"

.

[Runner]

Then cite the supporting scripture you say exists.

Happy to.

Where would you like to begin?

Why? I never said there was any such scripture. All I did was answer Ross's question: "Where did this concept come from?"

Wrong.

You posted multiple quotes from extra-biblical authors to support the legitimacy of the trinity.

Thus, you are arguing for the trinity.

[Ross]

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/ - see "History of the Trinity Doctrine (HIST)"

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/ - See: "John 1:1c Primer"

Hi, Ross,
These studies on "Examining the Trinity" are my own personal studies and are in my own words. I finished my own study of John's grammar concerning John 1:1c before I became a JW. In fact, it, and a few other personal studies, helped me decide to become a JW. I studied it in the 70's and initially wrote the first and largest version (DEF) of what I discovered on a typewriter.
The words are mine and are based on NT Greek grammar rules found in respected trinitarian NT Greek Grammars (sources are cited).
The blog is not connected in any way with JW.Org.

Thanks for the correction Tigger, It did look like a Watchtower publication to me, and it had references to JW.ORG, so I apologise.
I don't usually read long winded posts but I have on this one occasion.
While I am not a Koine' Greek scholar, and so cannot defend your complicated grammatical defence of John 1:c NWT; I would say the following:

1/ There is no 'a' in the Greek text of John 1:1, and you have went to exhaustive lengths to defend the addition of this word.
2/ Hardly any other translators of the NT have rendered or translated the verse in this fashion.
3/ As the Greek was all penned in capitals, there is no justification to reduce the word God to 'god' in John 1;1c.
4/ I disagree with the arguments relating to the definite article.

[Miles]

Then cite the supporting scripture you say exists.

Happy to.

Where would you like to begin?

Where ever you like. GO!

Scripture 1 ____________________________________________________________________________________

Scripture 2 ____________________________________________________________________________________

Scripture 3 ____________________________________________________________________________________

Scripture 4 ____________________________________________________________________________________

Scripture 5 (but only if you like) __________________________________________________________________

Why? I never said there was any such scripture. All I did was answer Ross's question: "Where did this concept come from?"

Wrong.

You posted multiple quotes from extra-biblical authors to support the legitimacy of the trinity.

Thus, you are arguing for the trinity.

I posted quotes from one (1) author, not about the legitimacy of the trinity, but its origins in Christian theology. If you can't tell the difference you have my sympathy.

.

[Runner]

Where ever you like. GO!

Ok.

I'll keep it super simple.

Since the concept of the trinity exists nowhere in Scripture, post any verse, or passage, that you believe teaches the concept of the trinity and I will address it.

We can go from there.

See? This is fun.

Cooperative debate is where it's at.

All that arguing and belittling is nonsense. Cooperation is the goods.

GO!