In preaching to Jews,

[Elijah John]

Jesus preached to Jews, and all of his first apostles and disciples were Jews.

For debate, what did Jesus preach that was not already provided by devout observance of Judaism? How was his message different than that or any reforming Jew of the day?

From Luke:

"they have Moses and the Prophets, if they don't listen to them, neither will they listen if someone were to rise from the dead".

[brianbbs67]

Red Wolf, you have discovered the other apostasy. Rabbinic revisionism. About 140 years ago, the Rabbi's decided to re translate the Tanakh(which wasn't assembled till the 800s) to remove any posible reference to Yeshua(Jesus). If you go back to older texts, like The LXX and even the KJ, they read mostly as christians read them today.

So, in short, the whole text of the bible has been corrupted in both directions and needs very skeptical review in the least.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 27 by Red Wolf]

No Seed for Jesus...Isaiah 53 not about Jesus

Isaiah 53:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

“he shall see his seed�

Seed.. Strong’s #2233 Zehrag in Hebrew
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, gives agricultural definitions for the Hebrew word for “seed� and the definition, semen virile, offspring.

It gives many definitions; you have selected the only one that supports your case.

You added this:

the word “zehrag� which clearly refers to offspring of a sexual union.

This word is in fact used multiple times, and has many uses and applications.

These include the following:

Brown-Driver-Briggs
זֶ֫רַע noun masculine Deuteronomy 28:38 sowing, seed, offspring (Late Hebrew)

5 seed as marked by moral quality = persons (or community) of such a quality; transition to this through such cases as those of ׳בְּרוּכֵי י ׳ז Isaiah 65:23 ("" צֶ�ֱצָ�ִי�), compare Isaiah 61:9; Isaiah 65:9; הַקֹּדֶש� ׳ז Ezra 9:2 (of Israel), compare Isaiah 53:10; note, in good sense צַדִּיקִי� ׳ז Proverbs 11:21 (opposed to רַע); �ֱמֶת ׳ז Jeremiah 2:21 ("" שׂוֺרֵק); �להי� ׳ז Malachi 2:15; — קֹדֶש� ׳ז Isaiah 6:13 is a gloss; — in bad sense מְרֵעִי� ׳ז Isaiah 1:4 community of evil-doers ("" גּוֺיחֹֿטֵ�, עַ� כֶּבֶד עָוֺן, בָּנִי� מַשְ�חִיתִי�), Isaiah 14:20; מְנָ�ֵף ׳ז Isaiah 57:3 ("" בני עֹנֲנָה); שָֿ�֑קֶר׳ז Isaiah 57:4 ("" יִלְדֵיפֶֿשַ�ע).

[Red Wolf]

Red Wolf, you have discovered the other apostasy. Rabbinic revisionism. About 140 years ago, the Rabbi's decided to re translate the Tanakh(which wasn't assembled till the 800s) to remove any posible reference to Yeshua(Jesus). If you go back to older texts, like The LXX and even the KJ, they read mostly as christians read them today.

So, in short, the whole text of the bible has been corrupted in both directions and needs very skeptical review in the least.

This sounds like a fabricated Christian argument to cover up problems that cast doubt on Christianity.....yes go ahead...blame it on the Jews

[Difflugia]

About 140 years ago, the Rabbi's decided to re translate the Tanakh(which wasn't assembled till the 800s) to remove any posible reference to Yeshua(Jesus). If you go back to older texts, like The LXX and even the KJ, they read mostly as christians read them today.

I agree that the texts as we have them have changed a bit through time, but leaving aside for a moment your assertion of a rabbinic, anti-Christian conspiracy, what specific references to Jesus do you think were there, but now aren't?

[brianbbs67]

About 140 years ago, the Rabbi's decided to re translate the Tanakh(which wasn't assembled till the 800s) to remove any posible reference to Yeshua(Jesus). If you go back to older texts, like The LXX and even the KJ, they read mostly as christians read them today.

I agree that the texts as we have them have changed a bit through time, but leaving aside for a moment your assertion of a rabbinic, anti-Christian conspiracy, what specific references to Jesus do you think were there, but now aren't?

The first one that comes to mind is Zechariah 12:10.

JPS 1980. But I will fill the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born.

JPS 1917. And I will pour upon the house of
David,
And upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem,
The spirit of grace and of
supplication;And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through;
And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,
And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

LXX. And i will pour upon the house of David, and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentations for him, as for a beloved friend, and they shall grieve intensely, as for a first born son.

NKJ. And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalemthe Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve as one grieves for a first born.

[Difflugia]

The first one that comes to mind is Zechariah 12:10.

I see the differences, but I don't see what you think was scrubbed. Is it that "pierced" was replaced with "slain" or "run through"?

[brianbbs67]

The first one that comes to mind is Zechariah 12:10.

I see the differences, but I don't see what you think was scrubbed. Is it that "pierced" was replaced with "slain" or "run through"?

Pierced is part of it. But the main is He is replaced with they. Singular to plural and then the other wording to accompany it.

Most Jews today claim Israel is the suffering servant because of the change to they and the removal of the piercing which was always there in older copies.

In other words, the original understanding for 1000s of years was of a prophet of God who was slain and pierced. One man whom Israel would cry out about. Not a whole nation, they. It was done to negate any reference to Jesus(yeshua/Joshua). Isaiah 53 is given the same treatment, modernly.