Must Catholics believe the N.T. is historical?

[polonius]

PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON THE STUDY OF HOLY SCRIPTURE (1893)

"For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church, solemnly defined in the Councils of Florence and of Trent, and finally confirmed and more expressly formulated by the Council of the Vatican."

Gospel of Matthew: Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod who died in 4 B.C.
Gospel of Luke: Jesus was born during the 6 AD census of Judea.

So Jesus was born twice,

1 Corinthians 15 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters[c] at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.

Note: This was written to a town 800 miles from were the evident took place by Paul a non witness. None of the witnesses nor the hundreds more they would have told left any writing confirming the story. The event is not reported I any of the Gospels.

Matt 27:52 “…tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised .53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Note: None of the “many� left any written records and the four authors of the Gospels say nothing about this.

[polonius]

Right Reason posted:

That the Catholic Church (started by a few Apostles prior to the printing press or any form of technology) is in every country on every continent on the globe.

Only the Catholic Church makes sense and meets the four marks of the True Church. Historical records support this proving once again that religion is about faith and reason.

RESPONSE: Your conclusion is in no way supported by your evidence.

PS I don't think that there is presently any church in Antarctica.

How do you conclude how many "marks" the "True Church" has? What is your evidence?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to brianbbs67]

You are correct by scripture to test everything to the word of God.

https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-21.htm

I agree. However, how exactly does one test Scripture when so many different individuals have so many different interpretations about what Scripture says/means? Words on a page need to be interpreted. Who has the authority when it comes to interpreting Scripture? What happens in two devout sincere intelligent individuals come to two very different understandings regarding Sacred Scripture?

Did Jesus not account for that very problem? Is there any man who thinks he is utterly immune from deception? Confusion? Misunderstanding? I like the words of G.K. Chesterton . . .

“I don’t want a church to be right when I am right. I want a church to be right when I am wrong.�

You test scripture with scripture. Test everything. The OT clears up a lot of supposed mysteries of the NT.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 31 by brianbbs67]

You test scripture with scripture.

You realize the illogic of that, right? Like I said, Scripture must be interpreted. If one is testing something against a faulty interpretation, I am certainly not confident in the outcome. No where is Scripture does it say Scripture alone is our authority. No where![/b] In fact, Scripture tells us the church is ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’

What happens when man alone sits down with the Bible and attempts to test it against itself is the result of things like the Jehovah Witnesses because that is exactly what their founder, Charles Taze Russell did.

Ironically, no one even seems to question where this Scripture you say we should test against itself came from in the first place. It did not fall from the sky. It came from Christ’s Church. It is the Church who selected what would or would not be included in Scripture in the first place. If you trusted the Church to give you Scripture, then why not trust her now to interpret it?

[RightReason]

[Replying to polonius]

I don't think that there is presently any church in Antarctica.

There are eight churches on Antarctica proper, with another two located south of the AntarcticConvergence. The southernmost of these religious buildings is the Chapel of Our Lady of the Snows, aCatholic chapel carved out of the ice surroundingthe Belgrano II Base, at Bertrab Nunatak.

List of Antarctic churches - Wikipedia

How do you conclude how many "marks" the "True Church" has? What is your evidence?

One finds evidence of the four marks of Christ’s Church in Scripture. You will find that Scripture describes how we can recognize His Church . . .


…The Church is One John 10:16: Jesus prophesies that “there shall be one fold and one shepherd.�• John 17:17-23: Jesus prays that his followers “may be one as we are one,� and “may be• brought to perfection as one.� Ephesians 4:4-6: “ There is one body, one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and• one God and Father of us all…� 1 Corinthians 1:10: “I appeal to you… that there be no dissensions among you, but that• you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.� Romans 16:17: “take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties�• Philippians 2:2: be “…of same the mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of• one mind.� Romans 12:5: “so we, who are many, are one body in Christ…�• 1 Corinthians 12:13: “…by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…�• Colossians 3:15: “Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were• called in the one body.� …The Church is Holy 1 Timothy 3:15: “…know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the• church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.� Colossians 1:18: “And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church…�• 1 Peter 2:9-10: “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people• belonging to God… Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God…� Ephesians 2:19-22: “Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow• citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.� …The Church is Catholic (‘universal’ & ‘of the fullness’) Matthew 28:18-20: “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on• earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.� Mark 16:15-16: “And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to• the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'� John 14:26: “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he• will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.� John 16:12-13: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them• now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.� …The Church is Apostolic Ephesians 2:19-20: “… but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the• household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,� Matthew 16:18-10: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,• and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.� Luke 22:28-30: “You [the apostles] are those who have continued with me in my trials;• and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.� John 15:16: “You [the apostles] did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed• you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide…� Matthew 28:16,18-20: “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee… And Jesus came and• said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.� John 20:21-23: “Jesus said to them [the apostles] again, “Peace be with you. As the• Father has sent me, even so I send you.� And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.�

https://www.archkck.org/file/schools_do ... Church.pdf

[polonius]

[Replying to post 31 by brianbbs67]

You test scripture with scripture.

You realize the illogic of that, right? Like I said, Scripture must be interpreted. If one is testing something against a faulty interpretation, I am certainly not confident in the outcome. No where is Scripture does it say Scripture alone is our authority. No where![/b] In fact, Scripture tells us the church is ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’

What happens when man alone sits down with the Bible and attempts to test it against itself is the result of things like the Jehovah Witnesses because that is exactly what their founder, Charles Taze Russell did.

Ironically, no one even seems to question where this Scripture you say we should test against itself came from in the first place. It did not fall from the sky. It came from Christ’s Church. It is the Church who selected what would or would not be included in Scripture in the first place. If you trusted the Church to give you Scripture, then why not trust her now to interpret it?

RESPONSE:

Perhaps one would be prudent to study the evolution of what some claim is divinely inspired scripture and determine if that believe is supported by the facts.

Begin with the Old Testament. When was it written?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 31 by brianbbs67]

You test scripture with scripture.

You realize the illogic of that, right? Like I said, Scripture must be interpreted. If one is testing something against a faulty interpretation, I am certainly not confident in the outcome. No where is Scripture does it say Scripture alone is our authority. No where![/b] In fact, Scripture tells us the church is ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’

What happens when man alone sits down with the Bible and attempts to test it against itself is the result of things like the Jehovah Witnesses because that is exactly what their founder, Charles Taze Russell did.

Ironically, no one even seems to question where this Scripture you say we should test against itself came from in the first place. It did not fall from the sky. It came from Christ’s Church. It is the Church who selected what would or would not be included in Scripture in the first place. If you trusted the Church to give you Scripture, then why not trust her now to interpret it?

I understand what you are saying. It is partially true. Just like i believe JWs to be. 1Thes 5:16-21 and Isaiah 8:20 come to mind first.

Here's a few more

https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-21.htm

[RightReason]

[Replying to polonius]

Perhaps one would be prudent to study the evolution of what some claim is divinely inspired scripture and determine if that believe is supported by the facts.

Begin with the Old Testament. When was it written?

Sorry, not sure I understand your comment. Sacred Scripture includes the Old Testament and the New Testament as well as things like proverbs and psalms. Also, when one reads Sacred Scripture, he should never read one verse in isolation of a reading of the whole of the Bible. Also, there might have been other stories/writings that were true, however for whatever reason the Church was not Divinely guided to make it part of the Bible.

[Elijah John]

Also, when one reads Sacred Scripture, he should never read one verse in isolation of a reading of the whole of the Bible.

You mean like the line from Paul that if one "..believes in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved"?

So we're not to read or interpret verses in isolation. But it seems here that Paul wrote this verse in isolation. Or else where is it's echo in the Old Testament? Or in the teachings of Jesus for that matter. Seems Jesus preached a "different Gospel" than what Paul is preaching here. (reference the Synoptics).

[RightReason]

[Replying to Elijah John]

RightReason wrote:


Also, when one reads Sacred Scripture, he should never read one verse in isolation of a reading of the whole of the Bible.


You mean like the line from Paul that if one "..believes in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved"?

So we're not to read or interpret verses in isolation.

Of course not. You are not supposed to read that passage, or any passage, in isolation. Context, and what came before and after all need to be taken into consideration when understanding what Paul’s words meant. The scriptures are not broken down into individual versus; they are looked at as a whole, with all of the Word taken into consideration. So when it comes to Romans 10:9-13, a Catholic can say with full confidence that what is being stated is true within the context of the complete Word. Who was Paul’s audience? We need to know the historical context and of course need to know everything else Scripture tells us about salvation as well. To reduce our understanding of salvation to one sentence in the Bible would be inappropriate and unreasonable.

But it seems here that Paul wrote this verse in isolation. Or else where is it's echo in the Old Testament? Or in the teachings of Jesus for that matter. Seems Jesus preached a "different Gospel" than what Paul is preaching here. (reference the Synoptics).

Uuummm . . . it might seem that way to you, but I am afraid that would be your private interpretation that does not take into account the Bible as a whole. A correct understanding of Scripture should not be influenced by our individual subjective opinion.