Questions for non-Trinitarians

[Matthew S Islam]

Hello everyone.

Disclaimer: I am not a Trinitarian or even a Christian for that matter, but I am rather intriguied by the complexities of your religious tradition.

I am really curious to see how non-Trinitarians make sense of these issues, which I cannot help but find problematic:

The Divinity of Christ and the Doctrine of the Trinity was established as the orthodox interpretation and was enforced by the Roman authorities. This resulted in the Trinity's theological supremecy throughout Christian history and up until today.

1) If Christianity is truly from God, then why did God allow a polytheistic doctrine to contaminate the mainstream tradition? What exactly is the wisdom behind the majority of Christians being polytheists--if the religion is ultimately Divine and true?

2) If your theology is in agreement with ultimate truth and reality, then why didn't God make non-Trinitarianism the dominant trend? Isn't God expected to guide and facillitate the true religion?

3) If the Bible as we currently have it is consistent with the Will of God, then how do you justify the wisdom behind how Jesus was portrayed in the New Testament? To be more clear: Why didn't God make the matter so clear and descisive, that folks wouldn't even think of debating it? If God has Divine Knowledge and is also Merciful, then why didn't he continue the Old Testaments trend of clear speech and consistent theology? Don't you believe that God is not the author of confusion?

4) If you're willing to accept that God did not have to ensure the dominance of the correct theology over polytheism, then how are you so confident with Pauline Christianity? What if Paul is how he appears to be--an open heretic? Why 'trust' the Will of God here, when you confidently oppose the 'Will of God' at Niceae and the majority of Christian history?

Thank you!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 30 by Matthew S]


I appreciate your input, you've clearly given the matter some thought. I cannot agree however that Christianity is not the religion of God (point #3). I can understand that you might come to that conclusion by looking at those that claim so called "apolistic sucession" whose centuries of corruption, inquisitions, conversion by the sword and false teachings have given Christianity a bad name, but once we understand the historic existence of apostate Christianity as predicted by Christ we are free from the misconception.

Jesus said by their fruits you shall recognize these men, so by rejecting the reasoning that the "oldest" Christian religion must by definition be the most likely to be true, and instead recognize that the oldest is by reason of the prediction of a "great apostasy", should be the first to be eliminated (since that would be evidence of being sown by satan), we are free to examine the fruit of the Christian religions that reemerged on world scene as predicted by Jesus, during the harvest season (namely during during the 20th century).


JW






The Devils seeds
http://i.cubeupload.com/TfdeWL.png

[Matthew S Islam]

False Christianity is far from "divine and true", it is in fact Satanic and untrue and part of Satan's plan to confuse people from the pure teachings of the bible and instread mislead them into believing falsehoods, ultimately distancing them from knowing the True God. The "wisdom" is Satanic but clever: after all, where do you hide a tree? Answer: In a forest. By surrounding true Christianity with false/imitation Christianity it makes truth harder to identify (compare John 8:44).

Because God is (for the time being) allowing this world to be dominated by Satan the Devil (see 1 John 5:19) . This situation has been allowed to exist in order to settle some central issues raised by the Edenic rebellion. In short this world belongs to Satan and what is good, pure and true will always exist in the minority. Jesus indicated that those on the road to life would be few (compared to the "many" on the road to destruction) and that those on the road to life would have to "find" the route. This indicates that the true religion would not initially be self evident and that being the "dominant trend" would be indicative of the religion being false (compare Mat 7: 13, 14)

The existence of false religion is simply a manifestation of the above. All false religion is identified in the bible as a "whore" (prostitute) called in the bible "BABYLON THE GREAT". The birth of apostated (corrupted/false/compromised) christianity (after the death of the last of the Apostles) is simply a subgroup of false religion a most useful tool of Satan the Devil.

Ok, I guess from one aspect I do agree with you. There are Satanic forces against us and God has created life as a test, however, it's important to recognize when these concepts are used appropriately, from when they are being used as scapegoats.

I think a good follow-up question to ask, is whether or not God has made the test of life too hard? And did he give too much power to Satan? Is the true religion clear enough and persuasive enough for the average Joe to arrive at?

Judging from your numbers, it seems that God is not saving His own people from Satan! I mean, it's one thing for people to be sinful or rebelious, but the majority of Christians have failed prior to even writing their tests! Why doesn't this exist in Islam or Judaism? If those religions are false, they should be in a worse condition, should they not?

There is nothing in scripture however to indicate that the majority of people will display a genuine desire for such divine guidance.

Interesting.

Jesus predicted that what he established as true Christianity during his ministry would be corrupted/contaminated by Satanic forces (See Mathew chaptere 13). The bible indicates God's ultimate purpose cannot be deterred but there is no guarantee in scripture that Satan would not be allowed to attempt to oppose it. Indeed in the garden of Eden God indicated human history would be marked by a struggle between the forces of good and the forces of evil, with both forces gaining certain victories. God has allowed this situation to settle central issues raised by mankind's initial rebellion.

I would really like for you to share your understanding on this chapter:

1) Do you understand it to be predicting major theological conflicts?

2) Is it not more related to sin and evil, as oppose to polytheism and false doctrines?

3) Could it be that you're not the righteous group being predicted?

Thank you.

[JehovahsWitness]

False Christianity is far from "divine and true", it is in fact Satanic and untrue and part of Satan's plan to confuse people from the pure teachings of the bible and instread mislead them into believing falsehoods, ultimately distancing them from knowing the True God. The "wisdom" is Satanic but clever: after all, where do you hide a tree? Answer: In a forest. By surrounding true Christianity with false/imitation Christianity it makes truth harder to identify (compare John 8:44).

Because God is (for the time being) allowing this world to be dominated by Satan the Devil (see 1 John 5:19) . This situation has been allowed to exist in order to settle some central issues raised by the Edenic rebellion. In short this world belongs to Satan and what is good, pure and true will always exist in the minority. Jesus indicated that those on the road to life would be few (compared to the "many" on the road to destruction) and that those on the road to life would have to "find" the route. This indicates that the true religion would not initially be self evident and that being the "dominant trend" would be indicative of the religion being false (compare Mat 7: 13, 14)

The existence of false religion is simply a manifestation of the above. All false religion is identified in the bible as a "whore" (prostitute) called in the bible "BABYLON THE GREAT". The birth of apostated (corrupted/false/compromised) christianity (after the death of the last of the Apostles) is simply a subgroup of false religion a most useful tool of Satan the Devil.

Ok, I guess from one aspect I do agree with you.

Good, please click on the links above to get a clear understanding of the birth of THE APOSTACY. Of course it is important to examine all religions, not just those of Christendom, in the light of scripture.


JW



RELATED POSTS

Did Jesus intend to start a "new"religion?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 645#792645

[JehovahsWitness]

Is the true religion clear enough and persuasive enough for the average Joe to arrive at?

Absolutely!

All sincere people that humbly seek the truth will I am absolutely convinced, find it. God is on their side, the angels at His disposal, Jesus assured us... So yes, the true religion can be found not least because one of the identifying marks of that religion will be a worldwide preaching work conducted during the "last days".

• #1 For example, please read Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28: 19, 20. If you were to ask the "average Joe" which religion is known worldwide for preaching a coming kingdom government of God during the 20th and 21st centuries, would he need a degree in rocket science to name it?
  
  Now look at John 13:35:
  

  By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.�

  #2 For which religion is it a historical fact that even when their governments declared war, continue to love their German or Japanese brothers and refused to take part or suppor effort to kill them because they loved them? Which religion can really claim to love their enemies, not just when its easy and their country is at peace but when war is declared?

The "average Joe" doesnt even have to leave his house to find the true relgion, all he has to do is open the door when someone from that relgion knocks on his door. God has made it as easy as one-two-three, all he has to do is listen.

3) Could it be that you're not the righteous group being predicted?

Of course there is a possibility that Jehovah's Witnesse are wrong. I sincerely believe however that this is not the case and more importantly I believe Jesus was not wrong when he implied that true religion can be identified by its producing works in line with what God requires. The list of identifying marks of the true religion is long, but even with just the two elements I've mentioned in this post, 99.9% of religions are automatically eliminated straight off the bat. Indeed, I know of only one 20th century religion that has done BOTH of the things mentioned above and continues to do so.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS





RELATED POSTS

What is the Jehovah's Witness view of other religions?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 315#868315

Further Reading: Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Have the One True Religion?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... -religion/

Are You Convinced That You Have the Truth? Why?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2014682

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

The chart you posted makes some interesting claims, as do you. Of course Matthew 13 makes no mention of Jehovah's Witnesses or any of the other Christian sects your chart lists. Any sect could simply revise the chart and put their name at the bottom instead of the JWs. Nothing in Matthew 13 would contradict them doing so.

Even more, Matthew 13 doesn't mention the 20th century. In fact, it doesn't mention any century at all.

Your claims and the chart you posted are simply a reflection of the assumptions your sect makes. These claims fall apart given that the passage listed for support, doesn't support them.

[Tcg]

The "average Joe" doesnt even have to leave his house to find the true relgion, all he has to do is open the door when someone from that relgion knocks on his door. God has made it as easy as one-two-three, all he has to do is listen.

The "average Joe" would have to do much more than that. He'd have to accept the assumptions the JW's make and can't support.

This so called easy one-two-three process would come to a screeching halt as soon as he asked for one simple thing. Support for the assumptions he is being asked to make without being presented any supporting facts.

[/quote]

[JehovahsWitness]

Judging from your numbers, it seems that God is not saving His own people from Satan!

Emphasis MINE

On the contrary, I believe God is busy saving his own by bring them into the true religion already counting in the millions, from every tribe, nation and language group. Revelation describes this group as "a great crowd". That said however It's true that ] "our (JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) numbers", are indeed small compared to other major religions (and miniscule compared to the earth's population)

There is nothing in scripture however to indicate that the majority of people will display a genuine desire for such divine guidance.

Interesting

QUESTION Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the true religion when their numbers are so relatively small?

One should not conclude that the the true religion must be the biggest religion (ie the religion with the biggest membership). On the contrary, if biblical precedence is to be taken into account, those with divine blessings have always been in the minority. After all, only 8 people survived the flood, that should tell us how God feels about numbers!

• We recall when Abraham was "negotiating" with God over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, he was down to ten righteous men in the two cities before the matter was dropped. In fact in the end, God didn't find even ten men in the entire city to save, he found one single family. Another indication that God values quality over quantity. Again and again in scripture we see the same pattern repeated, those that have the truth are in the minority indeed Jesus indicated that as far as the road to life is concerned, "few" would find it while "many" would be on the road to destruction. And how many Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah? At the time of his death there were 120 in the upper room in Jerusalem maybe a few hundred elsewhere.... a few hundred after 3 and a half years of intensive preaching, few Indeed compared to the nation's population of perhaps several million!

So does this mean God loses to Satan?

• Absolutely not. God wins because God views the numbers differently. Losing would be not finding all his sheep. Jesus assured his disciples not one would be lost. The real issue isn't how many but are there any? When Adam and Eve sinned, by virtue of the fact that they were the only two humans alive, Satan had 100% success rate. All humans had sided with him (Satan). He had won the battle, but would he win the war? The issue thus became, would ANYONE side with the True God (YHWH/Jehovah) and oppose the Devil? Satan later claimed not, that his record of 100% success would remain unbroken, so just one faithful human that resisted Satan until death would prove him (Satan) wrong. History testifies there hasn't been just one human there have been millions. Over 8 million today stand shoulder to shoulder upholding Jehovah's sovereignty, and this despite Satan throwing everything but the kitchen sink at them.

God "wins" Game over.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




Should true religion be have beliefs that are different from the majority?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 000#926000

[Tcg]

On the contrary, I believe God is busy saving his own by bring them into the true religion already counting in the millions, from every tribe, nation and language group.

The religion you belong to is Christianity. It has approximately 2.4 Billion followers.

Interesting indeed. One should not conclude that the the true religion must be the biggest religion (ie the religion with the biggest membership).

And yet your religion, Christianity, has the largest number of followers.

[polonius]

On the contrary, I believe God is busy saving his own by bring them into the true religion already counting in the millions, from every tribe, nation and language group.

The religion you belong to is Christianity. It has approximately 2.4 Billion followers.

Interesting indeed. One should not conclude that the the true religion must be the biggest religion (ie the religion with the biggest membership).

And yet your religion, Christianity, has the largest number of followers.

RESPONSE:

However, there are quite a number of different forms of Christianity. The single religion with the greatest number and fastest growing membership is Islam.

[polonius]

On the contrary, I believe God is busy saving his own by bring them into the true religion already counting in the millions, from every tribe, nation and language group.

The religion you belong to is Christianity. It has approximately 2.4 Billion followers.

Interesting indeed. One should not conclude that the the true religion must be the biggest religion (ie the religion with the biggest membership).

And yet your religion, Christianity, has the largest number of followers.

RESPONSE:

However, there are quite a number of different forms of Christianity. The single religion with the greatest number and fastest growing membership is Islam.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/lar ... world.html

Currently, Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet in absolute terms of followers worldwide.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/growth_isl_chr.htm

Author Samuel Huntington predicts that "Muslims in the world will continue to increase dramatically, amounting to 20 percent of the world's population about the turn of the [21st] century, surpassing the number of Christians some years later..."