Could I ask a favor?
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onewithhim
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Could I ask a favor?
Post #1Hi. I want to ask that only people who truly want to learn more about what the Bible says about living forever in Paradise on Earth to post on this thread. Please. I don't want to argue. I would very much appreciate it if people who think everybody is either going to heaven or to Hell would not start a battle of words here. I hope to hear from people who think that PSALM 37:9-11, and also verse 29, sounds pretty good. Thank you. OWH
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onewithhim
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Post #31
No. Taking everything in the Scriptures into consideration, Jesus was speaking to members of the 144,000 who will reign with him in heaven. The reference must be to the heavenly garden-like realm inherited by these people who will have conquered.tam wrote: Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote:The Bible says that Adam and Eve were in charge of the Garden of Eden, and they were to fill the earth with their progeny as well as cultivating it and taking care of it. (Genesis 1:28) That was God's original purpose for the earth. I believe that there is no indication in the Bible that He changed His mind about that. It has always been His idea and His desire to have the earth become a paradise with people on it that love Him and will obey His instructions.tam wrote: [Replying to post 6 by onewithhim]
Peace to you OWH,
Could you also explain to me where you get the term Paradise earth?
I am not disagreeing; just trying to understand what you mean specifically.
Thank you!
God never said to Adam or any other man that He had changed His mind and all people would now go to heaven. No, instead we see hundreds if not thousands of verses that speak of a physical world where things will be set right again, as it was in the beginning, and as God intended it to be. What else would we call this but "Paradise"? Jesus spoke to the thief beside him before he died and told him that he would be in Paradise with Jesus. I believe that he was speaking about this earth, onto which the man would be resurrected, under Jesus' reign over the earth from heaven.
Paradise conditions:
Isaiah 11:6-9
Isaiah 33:24
Isaiah 35:1,6
Isaiah 65:21-25
Job 33:25
Micah 4:4
I would agree that things will be as they were at the start with Adam and Eve (before they ate the tree of knowing good/life and bad/death). I was just wondering where the term came from.
Would you agree that Christ is referring to this Paradise at Revelation 2:7?
"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
Peace again to you!
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onewithhim
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Post #33
Apparently, yes. Heaven is so glorious, it is fittingly called a "paradise," and the earth was meant to be like the Garden of Eden all over. The Garden of Eden is known as "Paradise." In fact, the first definition of "paradise" in my dictionary is "the garden of Eden." The second definition is "a place or state of bliss, felicity, or delight."tam wrote: [Replying to post 31 by onewithhim]
Peace to you OWH!
So you think there are two different paradises?
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RightReason
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Post #34
[Replying to onewithhim]
It was not until 1935 that the JW’s came up with the idea of two hopes – one heavenly and the other earthly. It is contrary to Scripture:
I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:20-24)
The idea of there being two “classes� or groups of Christians–one with a heavenly hope and the other with an earthly hope goes counter to some plain words of St. Paul:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
https://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/11 ... he-144000/
Earth is but an exile, a temporary ‘home’ where we prepare to meet our Father in our true dwelling place. As Jesus said “I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am�- John 14:3
The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/more-stu ... -witnesses
The Paradise Earth theory of JW’s fails on so many levels.
One of the major tenets of Jehovah's Witness doctrine is that God's select people will inherit a paradise on earth. This paradise will be like a wonderful fountain of youth where people of all races and nationalities will live together in perfect harmony. They appeal to science which they say cannot explain why people age. "Humans should be able to live forever," they assert. This was God's original intention when He placed people on earth, that "the entire earth [was to be] brought under the control of a righteous human family all living together in peace and happiness." If only Adam and Eve had not sinned, death would be unknown, and man would still be living in a garden of Eden. God never intended to have the world inhabited in such a manner as it is today, with war, poverty, illness and sin abounding everywhere.
Here a Christian must ask himself, "Is God capable of such a mistake?" Not if He is All Powerful, Almighty, and All Knowing. . . .How then, could He have not known that man would sin and rebel against His authority? Here the Witnesses will admit that God could know such things if it was His will to know. "But God chose not to know," they reply. For what purpose?
"We can be sure that God's purpose for the earth did not change." On this point we can agree. But what was God's purpose for the earth? Surely God did not intend the pinnacle of His earthly creations to be a slave to His will, mere robots. Rather, we all know that God created man in his own image. In order to do so, He also gave us free will. The difficulty, however, does not come from an inability to conceptualize a God that would allow His creation to disobey him, but rather from the inability to conceptualize infinity.
God is without beginning or end. . . .He inhabits all time and all space. This concept is very important to an understanding of why the fall of Man could never have been unknown to God. The combined sins of man are as real to him now as the world before Adam, even before dinosaurs.
Indeed, the Watchtower undercuts their own argument in this respect. "God is able to foretell the future," they note. "He describes himself as 'the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, My own council will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do.' (Isaiah 46:10)" Still, wishing to show that God "chooses not to foreknow," the Watchtower presents the following argument: "would it not have been hypocritical for God to offer the prospect of everlasting life to Adam and Eve, fully aware that they would be unable to realize it?" How dare they call God a hypocrite! What blasphemy!
God always gave Adam and Eve "the prospect of everlasting life" even after the fall, through the eternal and Holy Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. If God wanted our first parents to remain in paradise forever, he could have done so by simply not creating a tree of knowledge, thereby preventing any means for disobedience. . . .There is nothing hypocritical about God knowing who will betray him and who will be faithful. Holy Scripture tells us, for example, that Judas was "destined to be lost" (Jn. 13:11; 17:12). Since Judas had not yet betrayed Jesus, he was indeed predestined to be lost, not by any interference from God, but by Judas' own free will which God knew "from the beginning."
The Watchtower's position also creates problems in logic. They say "that there are situations in which God chooses not to foreknow," yet they do not describe the method which God uses to make this choice. How does God decide which events He will foreknow and those He will not? In making this choice He must have criteria, yet knowledge of the criteria already suggests foreknowledge.
But what is that destiny for the ones chosen to be saved? The Watchtower cites Scriptural passages which they feel imply that the earth will last forever, and that the righteous will always inhabit it. However, one must be careful to read the quoted passages in context. Often they refer to the return of the Jews from the captivity of Babylon and Egypt. Other times, as in Psalms 67 and 72, they refer to blessings bestowed upon the king. In contrast, the Bible proclaims that His Kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36). Neither will ours be.
Watchtower books are filled with beautiful colour illustrations of the paradise on earth. Happy smiling faces are waiting to greet those wanting to convert. "Look how healthy and youthful they appear! If you were told that these people had already lived thousands of years, would you believe it?," exclaims the Watchtower. To back up their claims about this, yet undiscovered, fountain of youth, they cite Job 33:25. There Elihu, Job's young and proud friend, tells Job that "his flesh will recover it's childhood freshness, he will return to the days of his youth." If you recall the story of Job, you will remember that Job had lost all his family and his wealth when God decided to prove Job's faith. In his despair, Job was counseled by four sages. The last and youngest to speak was Elihu. We know that Elihu cannot be trusted for God declares, "Who is this, obscuring my intentions with his ignorant words? (Job 38:2)" When challenged on this, the Witnesses will respond that God was only referring to the other three sages. . .
What was lost by Adam's sin was the garden of Eden. The Watchtower promises that this state will be restored under Jesus Christ and the faithful of Jehovah will be permitted to reside in this paradise on earth. As evidence they cite Luke 23:43. Remember that Christ is speaking with a thief who, near death, sincerely professes his faith in our Lord. Jesus then "answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.'" In the Watchtower's New World Translation (NWT), the comma is shifted so that it falls after today. "Truly I tell you today,..." it reads, thus permitting an interpretation where the good thief will be resurrected at Armageddon and live with Jesus in his earthly paradise. The thief will not be in paradise today. Jesus is telling him "today," that he will live in a paradise on earth some thousands of years into the future. This goes back to the conception of time and how man measures the seasons in a way far different from God, as we discussed earlier. But all this is beside the point. Paradise is referred to elsewhere in the New Testament. . .
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/witwatch.htm#1
There is so much more that could be posted pointing out the holes in the JW “paradise earth� theory.
In addition to that, we can point out the illogic of it all. Things like this . . .
Sorry, but the colorful JW pamphlets showing 1950’s dressed people picking apples is illogical!!!!!! I think we are best to believe what Scripture tells us . . . “eye has not seen what awaits us . . . Scripture tells us we will be with God. That we will see the face of God. Again, JW scenario is we become some kind of petting zoo for God and 144,000 others to look at. Meh, I don’t think so. You can focus on puppy dogs and juicy peaches, I prefer to imagine being with My Lord and My God.
What that specifically entails or means is quite frankly just icing on the cake and not the part to get hung up on – less we run the risk, like other religions, that truly believe virgins await them in heaven to satisfy their every desire. LOL! If you can’t envision a pleasure beyond food and sex, I’d say you lack the meaning and understanding of Beauty, Love, Truth, God . . .
It was not until 1935 that the JW’s came up with the idea of two hopes – one heavenly and the other earthly. It is contrary to Scripture:
I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:20-24)
The idea of there being two “classes� or groups of Christians–one with a heavenly hope and the other with an earthly hope goes counter to some plain words of St. Paul:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
https://orthocath.wordpress.com/2010/11 ... he-144000/
Earth is but an exile, a temporary ‘home’ where we prepare to meet our Father in our true dwelling place. As Jesus said “I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am�- John 14:3
The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/more-stu ... -witnesses
The Paradise Earth theory of JW’s fails on so many levels.
One of the major tenets of Jehovah's Witness doctrine is that God's select people will inherit a paradise on earth. This paradise will be like a wonderful fountain of youth where people of all races and nationalities will live together in perfect harmony. They appeal to science which they say cannot explain why people age. "Humans should be able to live forever," they assert. This was God's original intention when He placed people on earth, that "the entire earth [was to be] brought under the control of a righteous human family all living together in peace and happiness." If only Adam and Eve had not sinned, death would be unknown, and man would still be living in a garden of Eden. God never intended to have the world inhabited in such a manner as it is today, with war, poverty, illness and sin abounding everywhere.
Here a Christian must ask himself, "Is God capable of such a mistake?" Not if He is All Powerful, Almighty, and All Knowing. . . .How then, could He have not known that man would sin and rebel against His authority? Here the Witnesses will admit that God could know such things if it was His will to know. "But God chose not to know," they reply. For what purpose?
"We can be sure that God's purpose for the earth did not change." On this point we can agree. But what was God's purpose for the earth? Surely God did not intend the pinnacle of His earthly creations to be a slave to His will, mere robots. Rather, we all know that God created man in his own image. In order to do so, He also gave us free will. The difficulty, however, does not come from an inability to conceptualize a God that would allow His creation to disobey him, but rather from the inability to conceptualize infinity.
God is without beginning or end. . . .He inhabits all time and all space. This concept is very important to an understanding of why the fall of Man could never have been unknown to God. The combined sins of man are as real to him now as the world before Adam, even before dinosaurs.
Indeed, the Watchtower undercuts their own argument in this respect. "God is able to foretell the future," they note. "He describes himself as 'the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, My own council will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do.' (Isaiah 46:10)" Still, wishing to show that God "chooses not to foreknow," the Watchtower presents the following argument: "would it not have been hypocritical for God to offer the prospect of everlasting life to Adam and Eve, fully aware that they would be unable to realize it?" How dare they call God a hypocrite! What blasphemy!
God always gave Adam and Eve "the prospect of everlasting life" even after the fall, through the eternal and Holy Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. If God wanted our first parents to remain in paradise forever, he could have done so by simply not creating a tree of knowledge, thereby preventing any means for disobedience. . . .There is nothing hypocritical about God knowing who will betray him and who will be faithful. Holy Scripture tells us, for example, that Judas was "destined to be lost" (Jn. 13:11; 17:12). Since Judas had not yet betrayed Jesus, he was indeed predestined to be lost, not by any interference from God, but by Judas' own free will which God knew "from the beginning."
The Watchtower's position also creates problems in logic. They say "that there are situations in which God chooses not to foreknow," yet they do not describe the method which God uses to make this choice. How does God decide which events He will foreknow and those He will not? In making this choice He must have criteria, yet knowledge of the criteria already suggests foreknowledge.
But what is that destiny for the ones chosen to be saved? The Watchtower cites Scriptural passages which they feel imply that the earth will last forever, and that the righteous will always inhabit it. However, one must be careful to read the quoted passages in context. Often they refer to the return of the Jews from the captivity of Babylon and Egypt. Other times, as in Psalms 67 and 72, they refer to blessings bestowed upon the king. In contrast, the Bible proclaims that His Kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36). Neither will ours be.
Watchtower books are filled with beautiful colour illustrations of the paradise on earth. Happy smiling faces are waiting to greet those wanting to convert. "Look how healthy and youthful they appear! If you were told that these people had already lived thousands of years, would you believe it?," exclaims the Watchtower. To back up their claims about this, yet undiscovered, fountain of youth, they cite Job 33:25. There Elihu, Job's young and proud friend, tells Job that "his flesh will recover it's childhood freshness, he will return to the days of his youth." If you recall the story of Job, you will remember that Job had lost all his family and his wealth when God decided to prove Job's faith. In his despair, Job was counseled by four sages. The last and youngest to speak was Elihu. We know that Elihu cannot be trusted for God declares, "Who is this, obscuring my intentions with his ignorant words? (Job 38:2)" When challenged on this, the Witnesses will respond that God was only referring to the other three sages. . .
What was lost by Adam's sin was the garden of Eden. The Watchtower promises that this state will be restored under Jesus Christ and the faithful of Jehovah will be permitted to reside in this paradise on earth. As evidence they cite Luke 23:43. Remember that Christ is speaking with a thief who, near death, sincerely professes his faith in our Lord. Jesus then "answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.'" In the Watchtower's New World Translation (NWT), the comma is shifted so that it falls after today. "Truly I tell you today,..." it reads, thus permitting an interpretation where the good thief will be resurrected at Armageddon and live with Jesus in his earthly paradise. The thief will not be in paradise today. Jesus is telling him "today," that he will live in a paradise on earth some thousands of years into the future. This goes back to the conception of time and how man measures the seasons in a way far different from God, as we discussed earlier. But all this is beside the point. Paradise is referred to elsewhere in the New Testament. . .
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/witwatch.htm#1
There is so much more that could be posted pointing out the holes in the JW “paradise earth� theory.
In addition to that, we can point out the illogic of it all. Things like this . . .
What does that mean if they wish? Will conception be an act of the will and not dependent upon the sexual act? And who will we be having sex with? Anyone we want? And why would anyone in a perfect world not want to have perfect babies and lots of them? Makes no sense. And if someone in paradise earth wants a baby who will take care of the babies? What if one of the partners wants a baby but not the other? Will the babies cry? Crying results from being unsatisfied – being hungry or wet or lonely or hurt? Getting up in the middle of the night to care for a crying baby might not be everyone’s idea of a paradise earth.all those living in the future paradise earth will be human and sexuality, sex and the resulting choice to procreation should they wish,
Sorry, but the colorful JW pamphlets showing 1950’s dressed people picking apples is illogical!!!!!! I think we are best to believe what Scripture tells us . . . “eye has not seen what awaits us . . . Scripture tells us we will be with God. That we will see the face of God. Again, JW scenario is we become some kind of petting zoo for God and 144,000 others to look at. Meh, I don’t think so. You can focus on puppy dogs and juicy peaches, I prefer to imagine being with My Lord and My God.
What that specifically entails or means is quite frankly just icing on the cake and not the part to get hung up on – less we run the risk, like other religions, that truly believe virgins await them in heaven to satisfy their every desire. LOL! If you can’t envision a pleasure beyond food and sex, I’d say you lack the meaning and understanding of Beauty, Love, Truth, God . . .
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #35
Emphasis MINERightReason wrote: Sorry, but the colorful JW pamphlets showing ... people picking apples is illogical!!!!!! .
Did the original paradise of Eden which God created not have fruit trees?
GENESIS 1:29
God said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food.
Good News Translation
I have provided all kinds of grain and all kinds of fruit for you to eat;
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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onewithhim
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Post #36
Yes! And it is so good when people actually do use their powers of reason. If God gave Adam and Eve "all kinds of grain and fruit to eat," it stands to reason---since His plan has not changed---that the "new earth" will have grain and fruit to eat. How can people not see this? I would be open to an explanation from one of these folks of why that does not make sense.JehovahsWitness wrote:Emphasis MINERightReason wrote: Sorry, but the colorful JW pamphlets showing ... people picking apples is illogical!!!!!! .
Did the original paradise of Eden which God created not have fruit trees?
GENESIS 1:29
God said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food.
Good News Translation
I have provided all kinds of grain and all kinds of fruit for you to eat;
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RightReason
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Post #37
[Replying to JehovahsWitness]
Why is everyone in JW pamphlets clothed if there was no shame prior to Adam & Eve? (I think I recall a JW once explaining we will wear what makes us comfortable.) LOL! Talk about illogical. How can one be uncomfortable in paradise?
If a woman can have a baby on planet paradise, does that mean she menstruates? Will her blood smell like roses?
What determines if she conceives after having sexual intercourse? If she wants to? If it is God’s will? What if she doesn’t want a baby in paradise earth, but conceives? What if she wants a baby, but doesn’t conceive? Can she have a million? I mean that really isn’t that many if we are talking eternity here . . .
Will the animals talk in paradise earth? Didn't the snake talk to Eve? I don't recall her seeming too shocked over that.
Can I eat steak in paradise earth?
Will there be hot fudge sundaes or just fruit trees?
Since Adam & Eve existed there are now machines that can pick apples from trees, would people on paradise earth utilize our God given intelligence to invent machines to help us with all this gardening and farming?
My questions are serious ones that I have yet to see a JW tackle. They usually copy and paste Watchtower tracts with canned questions like, "Will there be sex in heaven?" But that isn't what I'm asking.
JW theology runs into quite some dilemmas in making some of the assumptions they do and are unable to answer follow up questions that go with their initial assumptions.
I say stick to what we do know and trust Jesus Christ. You just might find out what you get is far better than any utopian ideal society you can conjure up. JW theology focuses on the material. On some paradise earth prize, but that isn’t the prize! Oneness with Our Father is.
I'm pretty sure you do not understand my point. I'm also pretty sure you do not understand the story of creation is just that -- the story of creation that God intended for His children to hear. What we should walk away with after reading Genesis is that God is the Creator of the Universe and all that it contains.Did the original paradise of Eden which God created not have fruit trees?
Why is everyone in JW pamphlets clothed if there was no shame prior to Adam & Eve? (I think I recall a JW once explaining we will wear what makes us comfortable.) LOL! Talk about illogical. How can one be uncomfortable in paradise?
If a woman can have a baby on planet paradise, does that mean she menstruates? Will her blood smell like roses?
What determines if she conceives after having sexual intercourse? If she wants to? If it is God’s will? What if she doesn’t want a baby in paradise earth, but conceives? What if she wants a baby, but doesn’t conceive? Can she have a million? I mean that really isn’t that many if we are talking eternity here . . .
Will the animals talk in paradise earth? Didn't the snake talk to Eve? I don't recall her seeming too shocked over that.
Can I eat steak in paradise earth?
Will there be hot fudge sundaes or just fruit trees?
Since Adam & Eve existed there are now machines that can pick apples from trees, would people on paradise earth utilize our God given intelligence to invent machines to help us with all this gardening and farming?
My questions are serious ones that I have yet to see a JW tackle. They usually copy and paste Watchtower tracts with canned questions like, "Will there be sex in heaven?" But that isn't what I'm asking.
JW theology runs into quite some dilemmas in making some of the assumptions they do and are unable to answer follow up questions that go with their initial assumptions.
I say stick to what we do know and trust Jesus Christ. You just might find out what you get is far better than any utopian ideal society you can conjure up. JW theology focuses on the material. On some paradise earth prize, but that isn’t the prize! Oneness with Our Father is.
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RightReason
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Post #38
[Replying to post 36 by onewithhim]
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/witwatch.htm#1
And it does not make sense because you are starting with your theory and going back to try to find Scripture to support it. There is plenty of Scripture that shows us the opposite of what JW’s cling to. I posted some of that in my previous post as well.
How do you not see that what you are espousing is to be living for the material – exactly what we are warned against.
You keep repeating that as if it is true. Please see my previous post where I debunk the JW false assumption that they presume to know fully what God’s plan was in the first place. It only ‘stands to reason’ if you start with your false assumption to begin with.If God gave Adam and Eve "all kinds of grain and fruit to eat," it stands to reason---since His plan has not changed
Again please read my above post and full link here to explain the holes in your paradise earth idea.---that the "new earth" will have grain and fruit to eat. How can people not see this? I would be open to an explanation from one of these folks of why that does not make sense
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/witwatch.htm#1
And it does not make sense because you are starting with your theory and going back to try to find Scripture to support it. There is plenty of Scripture that shows us the opposite of what JW’s cling to. I posted some of that in my previous post as well.
How do you not see that what you are espousing is to be living for the material – exactly what we are warned against.
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #39
I notice you didn't actually answer my question. My question was: Did the original paradise of Eden which God created not have fruit trees?RightReason wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]
I'm pretty sure you do not understand my point.Did the original paradise of Eden which God created not have fruit trees?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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RightReason
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Post #40
[Replying to JehovahsWitness]
I did answer your question in demonstrating just because Genesis tells us the Adam and Eve Garden of Eden story does not mean there necessarily was a literal fruit tree. Or that God created the world in 7 literal days, etc. The story has allegorical components – that every Biblical scholar would acknowledge. The tree of knowledge is meant to convey a message to us from God – to explain creation and the fall and establish our relationship with God, but is not necessarily literal in its description of the story of Adam and Eve.
So, your question did the Garden of Eden have fruit trees is irrelevant. Kind of like asking was Eve blonde? Also, even if that was a literal aspect of the story – that does not imply our new eternal home will have fruit trees that we will be expected to cultivate and eat for nourishment. It is your assumption that where we will spend eternity is exactly as depicted in Genesis, but this is something we do not know. And like I said JW’s even take it further than that and depict us having families, gardening, and swimming with the dolphins in heaven unable to answer then quite valid questions like will the average woman in “paradise earth� menstruate and have a trillion offspring – taking eternity into account.
. . Well, what say you?
You can’t be serious.I notice you didn't actually answer my question. My question was: Did the original paradise of Eden which God created not have fruit trees?
I did answer your question in demonstrating just because Genesis tells us the Adam and Eve Garden of Eden story does not mean there necessarily was a literal fruit tree. Or that God created the world in 7 literal days, etc. The story has allegorical components – that every Biblical scholar would acknowledge. The tree of knowledge is meant to convey a message to us from God – to explain creation and the fall and establish our relationship with God, but is not necessarily literal in its description of the story of Adam and Eve.
So, your question did the Garden of Eden have fruit trees is irrelevant. Kind of like asking was Eve blonde? Also, even if that was a literal aspect of the story – that does not imply our new eternal home will have fruit trees that we will be expected to cultivate and eat for nourishment. It is your assumption that where we will spend eternity is exactly as depicted in Genesis, but this is something we do not know. And like I said JW’s even take it further than that and depict us having families, gardening, and swimming with the dolphins in heaven unable to answer then quite valid questions like will the average woman in “paradise earth� menstruate and have a trillion offspring – taking eternity into account.
. . Well, what say you?
