Who is responsible?

[Peds nurse]

Imagine that a car manufacturing company, made the standard cars that we all drive today. It is equipped with a manual that tells the driver how to use the car efficiently. Although the car is equipped to engage in speeds of 120 miles per hour, the manual cautions the driver of the hazards of driving at such speeds.

Question for debate. Should the manufacturing company be held liable for people getting into accidents and sometimes causing death by driving at speeds not recommended?

I think we can translate this to the spiritual realm. Why should God be held accountable for people who make faulty decisions with their life, sometimes hurting or killing others?

[William]

[Replying to post 22 by bluethread]

I didn't say it did. I asked what is the point. What is the purpose of saying I am responsible?

What is the purpose in saying GOD has responsibility? The answer is, so that one remains in The Truth.

That is what I am saying. Why blame someone or something else for one's situation. Why not accept the situations and work on a solution.

As I said, part of the problem is that the Abrahamic religions often present GOD as blameless while at the same time present humanity as that which is to blame. The solution is to accept the problem and find the solution. In that particular case the problem is the blameless GOD and the solution is to understand the GOD is not blameless. Basically it is a stumbling block which requires removing. The individual, of course, can do this for their self. No point in waiting for the nod from Christendom.

[William]

[Replying to post 25 by steveb1]

Simple: I blame no creator because I deny that a creator exists. IF a creator exists I would blame the creator and hold It responsible, on the Gnostic principle that there is a true God above the paltry creator, to whom I would pledge myself. Obviously a creator who can be held to account is not all-powerful. Which is exactly what Gnosticism and some forms of Kabbalah state.

I call this True GOD First Source, and you are mistaken that the FS is not a creator, because all things exist on account of FS creativity.

FS created GODs which in turn created their creations, but essentially no consciousness exists outside of FSConsciousness, thus all consciousnesses are aspects of FSC in an undivided chain and in this way FS is able to explore all that is.

Its complicated, but in essence if you have some GOD who is set apart from creation(s) and blameless, then you have a problem.

You may well pledge yourself to this ultimate idea of GOD, but the fact remains that you are part of this problem - part of this prison - part of the Earth Entity, and while She may be just a 'paltry creator' and not all-powerful in your estimate, She is beloved by First Source and you would do well to acknowledge this and cease with the blaming.

It's not a matter of avenging oneself upon the corrupt creator, it's a matter - if one so chooses - to bypass that Demiurge and ascend to the true, high God.

You may find that the way is blocked - not because the Demiurge does this, but your attitude is what does it. You think you can bypass and ascend but you don't understand that such nature is not something which First Source is. Your lack of love won't go unnoticed and chances are you will be turned at the gate and told to go back and learn properly.

The better way is to embrace the local GOD the Earth Entity as you would your Mother, and understand that She is like a child-GOD learning the ropes and sometimes getting it wrong but your lack of support isn't helpful and you are far more intimately connected with Her than you realize. Pointing fingers at Her and then putting on garments of false righteousness and claiming you have all eyes for The One True GOD shows a major lack of understanding for the Wholeness of that GOD.

It is my understanding that LOVE in embracing the Earth Entity rather than bypassing Her is the acceptable way in which to 'ascend to the true, high God.' .

Obviously in the end it is your call, but it would be remiss of me to remain silent to your outburst when I know it is the wrong impression for anyone to have.

You can indulge in all the charitable activities you want, and as I mentioned earlier, you could use those very activities as protest demonstrations against the Demiurge.

What exactly is it that you think should be 'protested'? If it is something along the lines of 'The Demiurge claims to be 'The One True God' then you might want to somehow make sure your claim is correct, because if it isn't, then you are simply supporting/spreading a rumor.

[ttruscott]

I call this True GOD First Source, and you are mistaken that the FS is not a creator, because all things exist on account of FS creativity.

FS created GODs which in turn created their creations, but essentially no consciousness exists outside of FSConsciousness, thus all consciousnesses are aspects of FSC in an undivided chain and in this way FS is able to explore all that is.

So is FS a masochist or a psychotic that so many parts of him suffer so much?

[TSGracchus]

If I leave a loaded gun lying around and my seven year old shoots his little brother who is responsible?
If I, having the knowledge and power to stop it, allow my children to be tortured, mutilated, molested, marketed and killed, am I blameless because it was not me but another of my children who committed the deed?
Those are the questions that religious folks have to answer or come out a few slices short of a sandwich.

[marco]

If I leave a loaded gun lying around and my seven year old shoots his little brother who is responsible?
If I, having the knowledge and power to stop it, allow my children to be tortured, mutilated, molested, marketed and killed, am I blameless because it was not me but another of my children who committed the deed?
Those are the questions that religious folks have to answer or come out a few slices short of a sandwich.

I agree with your complaint; what father would give his son a stone instead of bread, or place a snake in a garden of innocence? But those who endorse such a deity have had two millennia to find answers . One method of dealing with the problem is to redefine words so that torture and death mean salvation and even love. John instructs us:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


In the many mansions of heaven, slavery is freedom and poverty wealth. It is an easy step, then, to see that apparent irresponsibility is infinite goodness. The wisdom of men is folly with God, so our accusations, justified in the human realm, have no merit in the divine.



There you have five little sandwiches made into enough food to feed thousands - or billions, as the case may be.

[ttruscott]

If I, having the knowledge and power to stop it, allow my children to be tortured, mutilated, molested, marketed and killed, am I blameless because it was not me but another of my children who committed the deed?

I see the straw man is still a favourite source of fuel to light up... Nothing in this re-telling of our reality has anything to do with the Christian explanation of life. If you want to keep discussing people as if they were kittens instead of wolves, so be it but you are saying nothing about Christianity at all.

Only sinners are born on earth.
Every sin has an equal and ultimate disvalue before GOD.
We are not sinners for what we do but for who we are in relationship with GOD.
Evil is just the way sinners act...

Only sinners are born on earth. Those who can be rehabilitated from their evil are sent here to learn two things:
1. that they themselves are evil.
This can take some time and they must experience being evil, ie, having evil desires and letting them fester then acting on them while they do other evil out of frustration with not being able to do all they want. This necessitates that they be allowed to live lives that reflect their sinful nature so they can have their eyes opened to their evil and from guilt, repent and seek their saviour.

2. that eternal evil does exist and such people cannot be rehabilitated and brought back to polite society so must be eternally banished from this reality.
This awareness comes from living in a world beset by the evil men do until one is overwhelmed and will finally accept HIS call for judgement and quit rationalizing it away as unnecessary, unloving or impatient.

At the same time, the evil men do is used as a part of the judgement upon (no rehabilitative value) the evil of the reprobate and as a painful discipline with a rehabilitative intent to change the minds and behaviour of those sinful elect who can be redeemed and can repent until they accept the absolute necessity of the banishment of the illegitimate who are not children.

Only by a full experience of the evil in our hearts acted out in our sordid lives will someone enslaved by its addictive power ever consider: "This is what I have become by rebelling against GOD, just as I was warned. This is the natural consequence of rejecting the call to judgment and choosing rebellion." and truly repent.

This is the perfect world to showcase the evils of sinners to open the eyes of those soft in heart so they may seek the Saviour of their change and become, as promised, righteous. The evil men do is to open the ears of those who can hear the difference between the sinful people of the kingdom from the people of the evil one to cause repentance and acceptance of the judgement.

[ttruscott]

I agree with your complaint; what father would give his son a stone instead of bread, or place a snake in a garden of innocence?

Still rejecting the doctrine of Adam and Eve being sinners in the garden, eh? Does it not fit your resistance against YHWH so well?

But those who endorse such a deity have had two millennia to find answers .

I consider that it has been longer than 6 millennia and contend that it is both the stubbornness and the frailty of the sinful elect which has caused the slow trek to their full redemption, not any inadequacy of GOD.

[TSGracchus]

[Replying to post 36 by ttruscott]

Mr. ttruscott, you did not address the post. You did not respond to the question.

TSGracchus wrote:
"If I, having the knowledge and power to stop it, allow my children to be tortured, mutilated, molested, marketed and killed, am I blameless because it was not me but another of my children who committed the deed?"

You merely accused me of being a sinner, a personal attack. You went on and on with pietistic preaching but did not answer the question. Essentially your response was, "Believe as I believe or go to hell." That is very Christian of you.

[bluethread]

In that particular case the problem is the blameless GOD and the solution is to understand the GOD is not blameless. Basically it is a stumbling block which requires removing. The individual, of course, can do this for their self. No point in waiting for the nod from Christendom.

Ok, one set of people thinks that their deity is blameless and another thinks that their deity is to blame. Apart from that, how are these two groups different?

[2timothy316]

If I leave a loaded gun lying around and my seven year old shoots his little brother who is responsible?
If I, having the knowledge and power to stop it, allow my children to be tortured, mutilated, molested, marketed and killed, am I blameless because it was not me but another of my children who committed the deed?
Those are the questions that religious folks have to answer or come out a few slices short of a sandwich.

So what if you stopped one act of violence, the problem is you still have murderous children. There is a bigger picture. All of the other children that are still deciding if you're a good parent. Should they listen to you? Why? What proof is there that you're a good parent? The question of responsibility is not about the power to stop something.

It's teaching what responsibility is to your children and stopping from them becoming wicked in the first place. You're children say, 'I know better than you and I can handle responsibility better than you'. So what do you? Say, 'no you can't' and then use your power to blow them away? Killing them is just avoiding the question which would make you seem like you're hiding something. Alter them to become a programmed robot so that they can only do what you tell them? Which is death of the individual anyway if you did that.

Many think they can just strong-arm people into doing the responsible thing and that strong arming people is a responsible thing to do. Yet how quickly they change their mind when someone tries to strong arm them. This takes away their freedom of choice. It is clear in the Bible that God wants to love Him because of the love He showed us first. To toss away what God has done for us was the beginning of irresponsibility. To abuse that freedom of choice is our fault. In the Bible God gave the anciant nation of Israel a choice. The blessing and life which is listening to Him and the curse, which is not listening and death. He said they must choose life if they want to live. DEUTERONOMY 30:19. In the future not only will God fix what all wicked ones did but He will also prevent it from ever happening again. But Jehovah is patient and is waiting for more to choose life. 2 Peter 3:9