Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[EBA]

God didn't create Satan as evil.

According to scripture he did.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Gen 3:1)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (Joh 8:44)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8)

Satan once was one of God's spiritual sons but forsook his place in Heaven. An angel of high position. Until he choose to be unrighteousness. (Ezekiel 28:14-17)

Sorry, that's just not true. It is a man-made doctrine to relieve God of his responsibility to save all of mankind.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2Co 11:14)

You teach that Satan was an angel of light that became evil which simply contradicts scripture.

Peace.

[2timothy316]

God didn't create Satan as evil.

According to scripture he did.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Gen 3:1)

This scripture does not prove that God created Satan as evil. It's describing the demeanor of an actual snake and likely why it was chosen to be a puppet for Satan.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (Joh 8:44)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8)

This does not support that God created Satan as evil either. 'From the beginning' is not speaking from Satan's beginning but from the beginning of the creation of the Earth. Like it says in Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning". That's the 'beginning' it's speaking of. The first lie is spoken of in Genesis 3:15 and not before.

Did you read the scripture I posted that speaks about Satan? Ezekiel 28:14-17.

"I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub. You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones. You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you...Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor. I will throw you down to the earth. I will make you a spectacle before kings."

Compare: Rev 12:9 "So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, "

These scriptures were compare can't be speaking of any other 'cherub' except the angel we now know as Satan. Ezekiel says the kingdom of Tyre is just like the cherub that rebelled, Satan who was created faultless but turned to unrighteousness, or do you not believe the writers Ezekiel and John?

[JehovahsWitness]

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (Joh 8:44)

American King James Version
You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


The Angel that became the Devil was in the truth, so he was at one time good, but as Jesus said he did not stay (or remain) so.

[EBA]

Hi JehovahsWitness,

American King James Version
You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Angel that became the Devil was in the truth, so he was at one time good, but as Jesus said he did not stay (or remain) so.

Satan was never an angel. Whether he "abode not in the truth" or "stayed not in the truth" or any other way you wish to present this, he was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING.

Peace

[EBA]

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Gen 3:1)

This scripture does not prove that God created Satan as evil. It's describing the demeanor of an actual snake and likely why it was chosen to be a puppet for Satan.

I disagree.

You actually provided a verse here that proves Satan to be that very serpent, only you didn’t emphasize that part, but I will:

Rev 12:9 "So down the great dragon was hurled, THE ORIGINAL SERPENT, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth,

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (Joh 8:44)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8)

This does not support that God created Satan as evil either. 'From the beginning' is not speaking from Satan's beginning but from the beginning of the creation of the Earth. No it is speaking of “the beginning.� And in that beginning God created the heaven and the earth, not just the earth. Did you read the scripture I posted that speaks about Satan? Ezekiel 28:14-17.

In an earlier post # 29 you stated:

Context in scripture is so important.

Yet, you are ripping scripture out context, that being about the King of Tyrus, and applying it to Satan. Can you explain just how you are able to that when you teach that “context is so important?�

And the context of Rev 12, can you explain just how that fits in with the creation theme? And don’t forget the context please.

These scriptures were compare can't be speaking of any other 'cherub' except the angel we now know as Satan. Ezekiel says the kingdom of Tyre is just like the cherub that rebelled, Satan who was created faultless but turned to unrighteousness, or do you not believe the writers Ezekiel and John?

Again Satan was evil from the beginning not the other way around:

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2Co 11:14)

And yes that cherub can and is someone other than Satan.

Everything you read in the OT was planned by God and carried out by the will of God and there was and is a purpose for it.

Ezekiel 28 is prophecy and prophecy is not about Satan it is about JESUS CHRIST!

Peace

[brianbbs67]

Ha'satan is the Jewish term for the High Adversary. Not its actual name. Femine in nature as the Israelites tell it. Described as the sublime Seraphin(always depicted as female). The legend goes, there was an assembly of the heavenly host. Out of that host, the sublime Seraphin said, I will make my throne up high like the Lord's and be the same as God. From the crowd, a lower angel said "Who said they are like unto God?!" And the melee began. God renamed that angel, Michael. Mi=like, cha=unto, el=God. Thus Michael the archangel was given his job and rank.

[ttruscott]

Satan was never an angel.

Prove this from scripture please....What was he if not an angel?

[JehovahsWitness]

he was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING.

Excellent point, so the next question to ask is "From the beginning of WHAT?"

- the beginning or time? (support with scripture)
- the beginning of creation? (support with scripture)
- the beginning of his existence as a living being? (support with scripture)
- the beginning of his corruption as a rebel ? (support with scripture)

other? (support with scripture)


Do you have an opinion on this? And can you produce any scriptures to support your answer to the above question?


JW

ps: It is perfectly alright to admit that it has never occurred to you to ask this logical question.

[JehovahsWitness]

Satan was never an angel.

Satan himself is transformed into an angel (2Co 11:14)

Well at the very least, from the above we can establish that Satan CAN be an angel; indeed the scripture you, yourself referred to designates Satan as such. The question is not "can Satan be described as an angel?" (the answer as you point out with scripture is "YES") the ONLY question is was Satan an angel when created?

You have yet to provide scriptural support to your affirmation that he was not.

JW

[polonius]

Satan himself is transformed into an angel (2Co 11:14)

Well at the very least, from the above we can establish that Satan CAN be an angel; indeed the scripture you, yourself referred to designates Satan as such. The question is not "can Satan be described as an angel?" (the answer as you point out with scripture is "YES") the ONLY question is was Satan an angel when created?

You have yet to provide scriptural support to your affirmation that he was not.

JW[/quote]

RESPONSE: Perhaps you should use a reliable Bible translation.


2 Corinthians 11:14 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

14 And no wonder! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.