The Christian Response to Homosexuality

[micatala]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?


Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread. What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

[melikio]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

This has been an approach I accepted long ago. My main contentions with most Christians are not based upon a desire to have them "approve" of homosexuality or acts related to it.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

That can be a helpful perspective, as you have aptly applied in this topic.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

Well, I've thought about that since I was a boy. And what is interesting, is that I certainly was a "Christian", before I accepted that I was "gay". So, the conflict that some "striaght" Christians believe they feel in accepting a homosexual person "externally", likely doesn't compare to dealing with accepting oneself as a homosexual who happens to finally figure out that being gay isn't just going to fade away (no matter how MUCH you hate yourself as a "Christian").

And it's funny that so many "Chrisitians" who actually believe that they are laying something HEAVY on a homosexual, using the typical few verses and social rejection techniques...etc., have less than a small clue, that the person they realized or discovered was homosexual, has likely been through more PAIN and SUFFERING than they could possibly imagine. And that is one primary reason that Christians who PLAY GOD in dealing with homosexuals and other sinners, can easily devastate a person's spirit, without much effort at all.

Ocassionally, a homosexual who has suffered as a Christian, will rise from the ashes of his/her life, like a "Phoenix". It seems that most "Christians" who have been taught that is not "right" or "impossible", may end up in a tremendous battle of wit and wills with such a person. So many make the mistake of thinking that being "homosexual" is a simple thing to understand, relate to or change. And that is where some Christians coming DOWN to meet these gay people would help more, than merely stating louder and LOUDER that homosexuality is this/that or just plain wrong.

Ok then; so they/we THINK or believe it is "wrong". Just as this topic suggests, it truly IS time that we/they think about how Christians should treat or deal with those PEOPLE we know to be or believe are "homosexual".

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?

Christians definitely SHOULDN'T apply uneven measure to homosexuals. There are other sins which compare sexually, that heterosexuals basically find to be more readily forgivable than homosexual behavior. Some of the answers for why that is, are better explained by a sociologist, than a theologian. But it needs to be understood (starting now, would be as good a time as any), one way or the other. And I believe there certainly IS a point where the overly-harsh treament of ANY sinner, is a sin (in and of itself). "Christians" may be "comissioned" by God, but they are not "God" Himself; they aren't perfect judges nor perfected to such a degree that they can condemn another human being (as many do homosexual people).

Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread.

Be sure to ENFORCE that point; some people are going to have a hard time understanding that their perception of the "wrongness" of (or dislike of) homosexuality, is not the same as addressing the issues surounding the PEOPLE who are (or happen to be) homosexual.

What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

The Bible can provide a moderate and compassionate form of guidance in dealing with "sin". Most of the reasonable postitions are somehwere toward the "middle", and likely not at the extremes which have certainly ADDED to the problems we are directly and indirectly addressing here.

-Mel-

[melikio]

I have proven I know a lot more than many others on this site about the history being played out in this thread.

Sound's like a BIG FAT HEAD to me.

Melikio,

Could you just once open with a rebuttal instead of opening your diary?

Could you just stop telling people how to participate in life?

IN THIS THREAD, we could find some common ground. You have some profound things to offer and debate if you would debate.

The Christian response to homosexuality has already been made in the New Testamen, BUT, there are many ways things can go "for" homosexuals.

Now please answer me this:

Do we homosexualize Christianity or Christianize homosexuals?

Your response has true worth.

Don't trust me all you want to; but please answer the question above?

Just stay ON TOPIC, 1John. I KNOW I can get under your skin. So, for the purpose of making more sense than you EVER have, just imagine that you do not need to respond to MY posts; address the TOPIC.

I think you are confrontational for reasons I can't figure out. I'm not like you man; don't you get it? You already said that I "slap" your hand away; of course I do; you keep zooming up and trying to get into my face. You are like the disturbing dream, where I FOUGHT and FOUGHT and FOUGHT, beating the snot out of my faceless opponent...and I'd wake up before anyone died or won.

I'm tired of weaving and bobbing to get around you, just like my mind got tired of THAT never-ending dream battle. Something got resolved somewhere; and I'm thankful to God for it.

So, I'm asking you now 1John, stay ON TOPIC with this thread; it'll be better if it isn't about you, me or anyone else participating here. I'm not forcing anyone to read what I write in my discussion "journal", nor am I demanding that they change or conform their lives, as a result of what I may reveal or share here. Still, I want everyone to know that they are talking to a HUMAN BEING; not some dry set of values, ideas or facts...a real thinking, feeling, human being.

Don't try to HIJACK this thread, by getting too personal (getting on MY case); I'll just go as far over and around you as I need to, to stay away from you.

-Mel-

[Joe Blackbird]

Joe, it is hilarious that you think your questions are unique or somehow deep...

What is truly funny to me is the posturing of the anti-Christianites like you...

Like it or not, atheists are not the deep thinkers at all. They are the stoppers of reality...

I'm the source of so many new threads, not only should I be receiving royalties from the owners of this website, I'll cage my positions in OP/ED-Copyright, whenever I can to make things go smoother...

Come on John. You can't expect people to take you seriously here when you make comments like these. Honestly. How is any of this rhetoric pertinent?

[Joe Blackbird]

Could you just once open with a rebuttal instead of opening your diary?

Mel has provided MANY rebuttals at this site without getting too personal. You need to stop accusing people of things that can't be substantiated John. If you want any credibility, this tact is not going to take you very far at this site, or elsewhere for that matter!

[McCulloch]

Moderator Intervention

Scrotum,
Your direct reference to 1John with regard to discriminatory violence is uncivil and uncalled for.

Well, If They are TRUE CHRISTIANS(TM), they would want to stone the homosexuals to death......

I think thats it.. Bun the body's perhaps, but i leave details to John.

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention

Quote 1John:
I have proven I know a lot more than many others on this site about the history being played out in this thread.

Sound's like a BIG FAT HEAD to me.

Insulting remarks about other posters are against forum rules.


If you don't agree with 1John's contention, feel free to state as much, but without the personal remarks.

[micatala]

So, the conflict that some "striaght" Christians believe they feel in accepting a homosexual person "externally", likely doesn't compare to dealing with accepting oneself as a homosexual who happens to finally figure out that being gay isn't just going to fade away (no matter how MUCH you hate yourself as a "Christian").

I can certainly understand this. I think it is fair to say that because Christians do often experience the temptations of other sins that are mentioned along with homosexuality in the NT (greed, anger, malice, murder, adultery, etc.) but typically do not experience homosexual feelings, that it is harder for us to have true empathy or compassion on homosexuals than other sinners. Perhaps this is one reason for the unequal treatment that many Christians give homosexuals.

Christians definitely SHOULDN'T apply uneven measure to homosexuals.

I would agree. In the NT, homosexuality, even if one agrees that what Paul is referring to is not a more limited set of practices, is always (corrrect me if I am wrong) mentioned in conjunction with other sins. Unless there is a clear Biblical reason to do so, I do not see why we would, either in our personal actions or our societal, treat 'homosexual offenders' differently than other sins or sinners.

I have proven I know a lot more than many others on this site about the history being played out in this thread.

In your opinion. I have quite a different view.

Do we homosexualize Christianity or Christianize homosexuals?

This is not one of the questions for debate. In addition, whatever you mean by 'homosexualize Christianity', it would not be relevant to the topic unless it was an action being taken by Christians. If you want to
very specifically define what you mean in a concise way and explain how it is relevant to the topic, then we might proceed. I am trying to avoid what I perceive to be the 'free-for-all' that has occurred in other threads on this topic.


There has been some discussion regarding OT versus NT statements on how Christians should deal with homosexuality and sin in general. Rather than get bogged down in which testament should take priority in which situation or other discussions on the relation between the OT and NT, I would suggest we at least emphasize the NT for the purposes of this thread. I know this may limit or skew what counts as a 'Christian' response, and will freely admit my bias that the NT in general takes precedence over the old.

I am not saying we should not refer to the OT, but would encourage us not to debate this particular point. We might say 'CHristians who give equal validity to the OT might respond with X' while 'Christians who look only to the NT might respond with Y' regarding homosexuality.

[1John2_26]

Geez Joe,

I posted more than what you replied about.

Quote:
How exactly does one, 'Christian bash' with Bible quotes? The thread topic is asking us to assume homosexuality is morally wrong, and propose ways for Christians to respond to it. The non-Christians here are simply defending what is actually written in the Bible;

Mat 5:18-19 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.


Joe, it is hilarious that you think your questions are unique or somehow deep.

Why does "God" in the Old Testament (Torah, Prophets and Writings), keep giving the Israelites a break. Time and time again they screw up and their "Righteous" Yahweh lets them off the hook.

God created us after His image, after His likeness. Male and female He created them. What is truly funny to me is the posturing of the anti-Christianites like you.

By the way "you" could not be "you" without your exact maother and exact father. You are all one. If you had a different mother you would be someone else right now. If you had a different father you would be someone else right now. But, you are you exclusively because of them.

The whole Bible-thing takes some thinking, but, that is what seperates us from the animals like it or not.

Like it or not, atheists are not the deep thinkers at all. They are the stoppers of reality, where things get difficult to contemplate . . . in my opinion.

I'm the source of so many new threads, not only should I be receiving royalties from the owners of this website, I'll cage my positions in OP/ED-Copyright, whenever I can to make things go smoother.

God commanded the Israelites not to murder and when David did, he was let off the hook. When the Israelites went after other Gods and had leaders that did the same thing . . . they too were let off the hook. Why would the Hebrews write about an absolute God and then show "Him" as having many sides?

Sounds like a relationship to me. Just about every human (not insane or mentally retarded to the point of incapability of reason) in every culture and place on earth, knows the give and take of relationships.

I know its tough to deal with the Bible but I'm thinking real communication from God wouldn't be easy to grasp.

Sorry Puppet Master deities just don't cut it. Our "human" nature proves that. After all, we are created in God's "image."

Now, on to: The Christian Response to Homosexuality .

Welcome home.

By the way, there are rules to being in the house.

As you have shown Joe, there is scant compatibilty with Gay culture and Christian culture.

Now, on to: The Christian Response to Homosexuality .

Welcome home.

Yet, the Bible is full of contradictions, just not the ones that will disprove it. God judges and acts and then recants and notices again the need for discipline then shows mercy. If God was smart He would allow the wiping away of evil by those that are decent and civil. Vigilante mobs were usually made up of pleasant moral and decent people that were fed up with being civl and nice and then being victimized.

"Human nature" shows an uncanny resemblence to the "nature" of the God of the Bible.

My prediction is that indeed liberal Christians (if they are Christians at all) will foist this gay culture into the Church with historical disastrous results.

The Catholic Church has shown what sneaky people do when they are in leadership. Propping up gay culture within orthodox Christian Churches is literally allowing the fox to grow chickens.

Mormons seem like fine people but their doctrine is unsound and aberrant and heretical. They seem to be thriving in their heretical Stakes (Churches).

Although I see no reason why Gays and lesbians should not start their own religion, anyone is indeed allowed to call themself a Christian and live as if they were.

Jesus asserts that that is His desire and that "at the end" the Angels will seperate the believers from the false believers.

Rosie O'Donnel looks a great gal. Mirror image of Christian family values.

OK.

But if she, or any other kind of person, wants to a"change" and, or, "alter" Christianity to become a homosexual sub-culture, God will not allow that. God will call His people to repentance. The immoarlity at the foundation of homosexuality cannot withstand any pressure to prove itself otherwise. It is aberrant behavior inside and outsied of Christian culture, doctrine and beliefs. Gay culture and community exists in a more growing state outside of Christian culture.

In due time after homosexual culture is equaled to normality it will fold into itself. History has shown us that. Christians should allow anyone that wants to call themself a Christian a place in their Churches until their actions and deeds prove them to be evil. There is a process for this in the Gospels.

The Christian response to Homosexuality should be to live and let live until they are attacked. Of course this is happening now, but Christians must be a long-suffering people. How long have Mormons been around? How long have Jehovah's Witnesses been around? The gay thing will fade quickly as soon as it is licensed onto our world. There is nothing new to same-gender sexuality and the need of its practioners to want mainstream acceptance. It is a very old "thing." It has come and its has gone.

Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I believe completely that Christians should never trust Gay (homosexual) Culture ever. And according to the Bible and especially the Gospels they cannot. But allowing individuals into the Christian fold is allowable. How many people will be saved out of Gay Culture by living within the Christian culture called to be lived in by God? THAT is a good response to homosexuality by any Christian, "worth their salt."

Once the evil that is so prevelent within Gay Culture, materializes in a Church, Christians have shown the speed and mercy to drive it away. Not speed and mercy toward the unrepentant wrong-doer, but the speed and mercy to protect the flock.

There is no compatibility or equal status to a culture defined by lascivious licentious and the Christian Culture of living for Christ Jesus. That is truly the difference between darkness and light.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

What is fascinating about Gay evangelicalsim is that that light is drawing people from that darkness still. No not in Gay or liberal Churches, but from being around the light that dwells in the immutable truth of Christ Jesus. Interacting with homosexuals by Christians in responding to them will and can only benefit some homosexuals by binging some the True Life that dwells in the light of Christ Jesus.

It is not the homosexualization of Christyianity that can ever happen. The only good thing that can come from interacting with Gays and Lesbians within the Church setting, is the Christanization of homosexual cultures.

The Way the Truth and the Life exists in Christ Jesus. In Him was no darkness found.

Shining light into dark places is always a good way of seeing what is going on and showing a way into the light. By, heading toward it. Who is to say how long that will take to happen? Christians responding to homosexuality is responding to "persons." Some decent, some evil and all lost. Jesus did not sacrifice Himslef on the Cross just for a few people.

But that is not to say that Christ died to ignore evil. Indeed the parables speak many times to a culture and peoples obsessed with hedonism and pleasure and selfishness and hypocrisy in all its forms.

It looks like their is a movement (very large) to embrace Christ Jesus within the Gay Community, though it appears to be fraught with inconsistency.

Christ Jesus is the way to truth and life. That can only be denied to the person that rejects it.

[micatala]

My prediction is that indeed liberal Christians (if they are Christians at all) will foist this gay culture into the Church with historical disastrous results.

The Catholic Church has shown what sneaky people do when they are in leadership. Propping up gay culture within orthodox Christian Churches is literally allowing the fox to grow chickens.

Again, I will encourage to remain on topic. Predictions about what might happen in the future or other statements not related to the OP are not relevant.

But if she, or any other kind of person, wants to a"change" and, or, "alter" Christianity to become a homosexual sub-culture, God will not allow that.

Let's focus on what the response of humans should be. What God might or might not do is outside of the scope of the thread.



THere are several relevant statements in the post.

anyone is indeed allowed to call themself a Christian and live as if they were.

. . . .

The Christian response to Homosexuality should be to live and let live until they are attacked.

. . . .

I believe completely that Christians should never trust Gay (homosexual) Culture ever. And according to the Bible and especially the Gospels they cannot. But allowing individuals into the Christian fold is allowable. How many people will be saved out of Gay Culture by living within the Christian culture called to be lived in by God? THAT is a good response to homosexuality by any Christian, "worth their salt."

. . . .

Once the evil that is so prevelent within Gay Culture, materializes in a Church, Christians have shown the speed and mercy to drive it away. Not speed and mercy toward the unrepentant wrong-doer, but the speed and mercy to protect the flock.

. . . .

Interacting with homosexuals by Christians in responding to them will and can only benefit some homosexuals by binging some the True Life that dwells in the light of Christ Jesus.

So, what I am gathering is that it is OK for Christians to evangelize, show the love and light of God, etc. in interacting with homosexuals, but also that Christians need to 'protect themselves' or their churches from homosexuality.

This seems to be promoting a sort of balancing act between contradictory approaches. On the one hand, interacting with homosexuals can only benefit some of the homosexuals, but on the other hand, homosexuals are to be 'driven away' in order to protect the flock.


Now, to get to the details.

What would be the specific Biblical passages supporting these positions?

For example, what supports the position that Christians should live and let live unless they are attacked? In addition, what constitutes an attack and what should be the response if attacked?

One relevant passage of course would be Jesus saying 'if your enemy strikes you on the cheek, offer him the other cheek.' THis suggest the response to an attack is to offer to be attacked again. Certainly there is nothing here to support the idea that Christians should respond to an attack with a counter attack.

[Cathar1950]

Interesting questions micatala.

For example, what supports the position that Christians should live and let live unless they are attacked? In addition, what constitutes an attack and what should be the response if attacked?

One relevant passage of course would be Jesus saying 'if your enemy strikes you on the cheek, offer him the other cheek.' THis suggest the response to an attack is to offer to be attacked again. Certainly there is nothing here to support the idea that Christians should respond to an attack with a counter attack.

Should Christians attack? Should they attack first sort of like a preemptive strike? For a start I don't think any one should be attacking anyone.
It also should be open for debate and civil tolerance, understanding and equality. If churches as communities want to separate themselves fine. They won't have any gays, just people acting gay. (I mean this the way a South park kid means gay and nothing much to do with homosexuality).
What is nice is you can always start another Christian church or denomination or find one already established and open.
Change it from in if you want but don't feel bad if you give up. Sometimes it is better to just walk away and not look back.