This generation shall not pass until

[Checkpoint]

This issue has been discussed over the centuries, and resulted in no agreed answer. Instead at least four possibilities have been proposed. These are:

#1. The generation alive at the time He spoke.
#2. The generation living when He returns.
#3. The nation of Israel, or the Jews as a race.
#4. A particular kind of people.

What is your view on this, and why do you hold it?

[OnceConvinced]

Hebrew and Greek do not follow the precise rules that English does. You can't go by the exact wording in English but have to check out what alternate ways it could be translated into English. Many words in the translations are added to conform to our language. Sometimes it either alters the meaning to us or it can have alternate translations.

BTW, I don't think Yeshua spoke Old English.

I don't know about you but I will trust that the professional translators got the meanings correct and that they got the grammar correct.

[Checkpoint]

You wrote, Yahu:

"Hebrew and Greek do not follow the precise rules that English does. You can't go by the exact wording in English but have to check out what alternate ways it could be translated into English. Many words in the translations are added to conform to our language. Sometimes it either alters the meaning to us or it can have alternate translations".

Yes.

Here is a very relevant discussion and explanation of the scriptures we are discussing, from an expert in biblical Greek.

Please give it your due consideration.

http://blogs.blueletterbible.org/blb/2012/08/22/3956/

[postroad]

How can this text be understood if in fact belief in the imminent return of Christ was not expected by this author?

1 John 2:18-19New International Version (NIV)

Warnings Against Denying the Son

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

[OnceConvinced]

Well then you have to look at it. Did you know there are three different words for WORLD and three different words for END in Mathew 24?

I am not interested in trying to change meanings of words in the bible. The professional translators can surely be relied upon to give us the correct translations. At least i consider them more reliable than someone on the internet.

Until you can show that you are more qualified than the professionals, then how about we stick to the trusted English translations?

You would have to completely change the meanings of words in the scripture for this to be the case. However all the standard translations talk about a generation not a nation. Why would these professionals have it wrong, while those amateurs who wish to use the meaning "nation" have it right?

You would have to change the entire meaning of the Chapter. There's no question the entire chapter is an over a 30 verse response about the signs of His return and the stones being thrown down and...TIME OF THE END.

Then why was Paul so adamant that he was living in the end times? Why did he believe that Jesus's return was eminent?

These facts show one of two things:

1) The events did happen. Just not perhaps how you expected them to.
2) Paul was deluded, in which case we should scrap all of his writings.

The English language really is a bit insufficient interpreting Greek. Greek and Hebrew often uses several words to define one or two English words. And it is acceptable English grammar to use EITHER the word THIS OR THAT.

You have to look at the meaning of EVERY word in the Greek Lexicon AND the interlinear. Look at the context and the verses just before 'this Gen...

I really have no interested in the translations made by strangers on the Internet. If the professionals have got it wrong, I suggest you go and take it up with them. In the mean time I will trust the professionals and the words they have translated. And I will trust that they used good grammar.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 34 by OnceConvinced]

You keep quoting this:

"The greatest trick God ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist".

It appears you have fallen for that claimed "trick".

I am konfoozed!

[Yahu]

Hebrew and Greek do not follow the precise rules that English does. You can't go by the exact wording in English but have to check out what alternate ways it could be translated into English. Many words in the translations are added to conform to our language. Sometimes it either alters the meaning to us or it can have alternate translations.

BTW, I don't think Yeshua spoke Old English.

I don't know about you but I will trust that the professional translators got the meanings correct and that they got the grammar correct.

LOL, I never trust the translators. I have found too many errors. I even went to bible college in my 40s to learn how to translate Hebrew because I KNEW some translations were wrong in places. I had to learn how they could be alternately translated. The reason being, the passage was about ancient paganism and I knew what it was talking about but the translator must not have been familiar with the context. Oh, the translators are MUCH better with language but a lot of the translation comes from the context and if you don't understand the context, errors occur.

Then you have differing translations saying different things. It is always good to see how they got different ideas from the same original.

There there are cases that they used differing codexs and the original they translated differs from other ancient copies.

Then you have the situation with the KJV which was translated from Hebrew->Greek->Latin->German->Old English. That is too many chances to have error creep in.

That is why I prefer to use the Amplified version. It tends to show you alternate translations in [] when there is an known alternate possibility during translation.

For example, Isa 57:9 in the KJV uses the word 'king' while some other translations use 'Molech',. the pagan god whose name means 'shameful king' while the Amplified says 'king [ or Molech]' and gives you the option to determine from the context which is correct. The actual correct option is Molech. It is a passage about the Baalim worship and ritual witchcraft conducted in Molech worship. In this particular case the KJV used a codex that was vowel pointed differently. Those vowel points were not on the original but added later by scribes to help with pronouncing it correctly so the error was a scribal error from the codex used.

[Wootah]

Also let's not forget there is another scripture:

Matt 16:28:
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

So either Jesus DID return back then... or it's all a fantasy.

Exactly. He also instructed his disciples not to bother going into the cities of the gentiles because they would not even have enough time to go to every city in the house of Israel.

This does NOT fit in with evangelists preaching to the whole world thousands of years later.

Clearly if there is any truth to these stories then Jesus already came back and took the "few" people he was interested in and all we are today are the decedents of the rejects.

The idea that Jesus is coming back today is simply not compatible with these ancient fables.

You guys are straining out gnats and swallowing camels. Befuddled. When Jesus said that "some here will not taste death until you see me in my glory," he almost immediately took Peter, James and John to the mountain where they saw the Transfiguration. That showed Jesus as he would be "coming in glory." So that was fulfilled right then.

You want to reject the whole prophecy of the Last Days, which Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew ch.24. You are free to do that. But it's too bad you dismiss it all as "fables" and "fantasy." The Great Tribulation that Jesus foretold will hit with suddenness, and many people will be caught off-guard, and won't know what's going on, because they weren't interested to find out what Jesus was talking about.

Moderator Comment
[strike]You guys are straining out gnats and swallowing camels. Befuddled.[/strike]

Your post was tarnished by the unnecessary ad hominem.

Also this is way too preachy.

[strike]You want to reject the whole prophecy of the Last Days, which Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew ch.24. You are free to do that. But it's too bad you dismiss it all as "fables" and "fantasy." The Great Tribulation that Jesus foretold will hit with suddenness, and many people will be caught off-guard, and won't know what's going on, because they weren't interested to find out what Jesus was talking about.[/strike]

Please review the Rules.


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[Black Sheep]

[Replying to post 34 by OnceConvinced]

The professional translators can surely be relied upon to give us the correct translations. At least i consider them more reliable than someone on the internet.

The so called professional translators are the ones misleading people because no matter what denomination they come from, their bias supports their teachings. That's one way Christianity has gone bad. People fabricate things to support the organization they belong to or what they already believe, and most of it is a colossal interpretational blunder. I don't trust the 'expert prophecy teachers' for anything. The ones I do trust are those who spent their lifetime working on the lexicons. I've had Vines, Wuest, Strong's, Gesenius, Thayers, and a few others, all in book form since 1973. I do my own research and I LIKE to change my mind when the totality of the evidence deems it.

Most 'prophecy experts' barely peer into the original language. Many of them DO KNOW that the Lexicons sometime clearly debunk their position. That's especially true with the pre-trib view. I don't accept very much of the 'prophecy experts' eschatology.

Until you can show that you are more qualified than the professionals, then how about we stick to the trusted English translations?

I'm AS qualified as they are in many respects. I'm just not committed to support any ones eschatology. I just show people the results of my unbiased studies and how I arrive at my conclusions.

I've been doing this for a while and I'm not going to give you my resume. I preached my first sermon in 1973, almost became a minister, but saw the writing on the indoctrination wall so I got out. I have my own beliefs and I'm not a Greek or Hebrew scholar. But these days, with the resources we have, it's actually quite easy to get an accurate interpretation of the bible. It just takes time. I have a host of resources in book form from the experts. The lexicons and the interlinear don't lie, and that's one resource I heavily rely upon.

The word inspired means "God breathed or God spoke." When God spoke to His servants, the prophets, He spoke to them in the same language they also spoke, understood, and wrote. So one of the most important parts of my hermeneutic is to look at the history, grammar, context, and research the definition of the words in the text in the language it was written. And then look at how those same biblical words are used elsewhere in the bible...and accept the definition of those words regardless if it goes against what I already believe.

Then why was Paul so adamant that he was living in the end times? Why did he believe that Jesus's return was eminent?

Show me where, and I'll show you WHY.

These facts show one of two things:

1) The events did happen. Just not perhaps how you expected them to.
2) Paul was deluded, in which case we should scrap all of his writings.

And WHAT facts have you provided? I could continue on and turn this into long drawn out thing with a mountain of evidence to debunk the other ideas about 'this generation', but can tell it would be futile.

All I can tell you is that if you believe that this...

Matthew 24:1  ¶And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4  ¶And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25  Behold, I have told you before.
26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

...took place between 33 and 70 AD and provide 0 evidence, you are as misled as the Preterist and Historicist. You just don't fabricate like they do. It takes time to debunk those two but it's actually pretty easy.

I really have no interested in the translations made by strangers on the Internet. If the professionals have got it wrong, I suggest you go and take it up with them. In the mean time I will trust the professionals and the words they have translated. And I will trust that they used good grammar.

I'm a stranger and plan to keep it that way. If you don't believe what I have to say about the lexicons, I'll provide the links and walk you through it. I certainly don't believe you who's hermeneutic pretty much amounts to, "just saying so" and then calling it facts.

[Checkpoint]

You said:

"I'm AS qualified as they are in many respects. I'm just not committed to support any ones eschatology. I just show people the results of my unbiased studies and how I arrive at my conclusions.

I've been doing this for a while and I'm not going to give you my resume. I have my own beliefs and I'm not a Greek or Hebrew scholar. But these days, with the resources we have, it's actually quite easy to get an accurate interpretation of the bible. It just takes time. I have a host of resources in book form from the experts. The lexicons and the interlinear don't lie, and that's one resource I heavily rely upon.

The word inspired means "God breathed or God spoke." When God spoke to His servants, the prophets, He spoke to them in the same language they also spoke, understood, and wrote. So one of the most important parts of my hermeneutic is to look at the history, grammar, context, and research the definition of the words in the text in the language it was written. And then look at how those same biblical words are used elsewhere in the bible...and accept the definition of those words regardless if it goes against what I already believe".

Good for you. Me too.

[Black Sheep]

Postroad quoted,

1 John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Keep in mind verse 17...

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

So John already in his head comes up with the time when, "THE WORLD PASSETH AWAY." WHEN DOES THE WORD PASS AWAY?

People interpret this verse the way they want to, but to accept this 'last time' as the time around John's day really means the anti-christ has already come.

There are some who think 'antichrist' always indicates a plurality of persons, or that there's no such thing as one man emerging in the last days. They tell us that the end-time 'anti-Christ' is a 'spirit' and NOT an individual, but they aren't paying attention to the verse.

This verse has one word for antichrist that is singular and the other plural and it wasn't translated correctly in the KJV. Several other translations actually have it more accurate than the KJV.

This is the KJV
1 John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

This is the way it should be written. The NIV...

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that (THE) antichrist (singular) shall come, even now are there many antichrists; (plural) whereby we know that it is the last time.

If I were to translate the verse from the Greek interlinear, it would look something like this.

Little boys and girls, it is the last hour and according as ye hear that THE "instead-anointed" (antichrist) is coming and now many instead anointeds have become.....

So take a close look at it and you should see that one word for anti-Christ is singular and referred to as THE antichrist, and the other word is plural. Take a look if you don't believe me.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/1jo2.pdf

Over a dozen bible translations use the word 'the' in the translation of 1 John 2:18 to indicate AN ANTICHRIST is coming at the last hour. The ones that omit the word 'the' do so mistakenly. The word 'THE' was omitted in the KJV and should not have been. Something as simple as dropping the word 'THE' in English usually isn't something that changes the correct interpretation very much, but in the Greek, just dropping the article changes everything, especially with the word all. In every aspect I study 2 John 2:18, I never walk away believing this to be ONLY a plurality of persons, just a spirit. or implying johns time. One word is singular and implies ONE antichrist man coming in the future, especially when personal pronouns are used to describe him elsewhere.

"it is the last time:"

One problem with looking at this verse implying the time of John is that the anti-Christ has not yet come. Don't let the words 'the last time' fool you. The Thessalonians thought they missed the rapture, that doesn't mean it was on the horizon either.

Regardless if John or Paul anticipated Christ return sometime in the near future doesn't mean it was the case. They didn't prophesy anywhere that it would be in their lifetime anyway, and to say it does contradicts a host of verses! They did tell us what signs we would expect to see witness, what troubles we would endure, what conditions would exist, along with a host of significant events that have never passed. WHEN THE ANTICHRIST COMES.

Things are the same today. Millions think the Lord will return soon. This time they may be right.