Forgiving God

[Skyangel]

God admits to being a deceiver, yet at the same time warns people not to be deceived.
Is an open deceiver a liar and does He need to be forgiven for deceiving people?

If a man is deceived, can he know that he is deceived if no one ever explains the deception to him ?
If a person figures out for himself that some things simply don't "add up" do they lose trust in the person who deceived them?

The whole story of the bible is based on the deception of mankind. The concept is that mankind were and still are deceived by the serpent till such a time as they "wake up" or are set free from the deception by acknowledging the Truth ( Jesus).

If mankind never considers the possibility that he may be deceived then he will never consider the Truth which will set him free from the deception.
Only Truth can make people free.
There are plenty of warnings about taking care to not be deceived. That implies the possibility of deception at all times.

The bible is very clear that God deceives people and warns us to not be deceived at the same time.

Deut 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them

Jer 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.


Jer 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

Exek 14;9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

2 Tit 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


If you understand the principles of God apply to God himself then God is basically calling Himself evil when he admits to deceiving and deluding people.

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God allowed people to judge Him and crucify Him for being a deceiver, even though the deception is very open and obove board and is not really a deception any more than a magicians illusion is a deception. However, it does tend to fool and deceive the ignorant who prefer to believe the magician can do magic or miracles rather than understand that life is all an illusion and humans can do all that God can do too.

Some people will never forgive God for appearing harsh and mean and cruel and others do forgive Him. If we forgive we will be forgiven. If we don't, we won't be forgiven either. Yet God forgives all, so how can anyone not be forgiven? They are not forgiven unless they forgive themselves for their own foolishness. We reap what we sow. If we sow unforgiveness, that is also what we reap.

Guilt is inside mankind and only the man himself can get rid of the guilt by understanding the Truth of what causes it and overcome the cause so it has no more effect on his life.

People who never forgive God are never in Christ and never in Truth. They prefer to hold on to their anger and hate of God as they keep rejecting Him and claim He does not exist because He does not "fix" their problems and become their slave who they can command to do as they want Him to do. They want God to treat them with respect as they disrespect God because he tricked, deceived, deluded, them and they won't forgive Him for it.

Does God need to be forgiven or do people need to forgive themselves for their own foolishness and stupidity in allowing themselves to be deceived?

Is the word of God the classic example of the liar paradox?

Also see http://www.logicalparadoxes.info/liar/

The same paradox applies to the word of God. God admits He is being deceptive and causing delusions. Is God therefore being deceptive and causing delusions or is God simply the greatest magician and illusionist in the universe who keeps people wondering whether He exists in reality or not?

[ChaosBorders]

My point is that if a person judges another person to be psycopathic in the first place, it would seem obvious that they are detecting something different about them from the start. It really makes no difference what abnormalities any person might have, lies and deceptions eventually get discovered by those who want to know the truth and search for it, no matter how high an IQ the deceiver might have.

This is a blanket statement though that does not describe all deception. If I tell someone that I like their haircut when in fact I hate it, they will never know I am lying. It doesn't matter how much they might want to know my true opinion, or how hard they search for it, they will never be able to tell that I do not like their haircut.

Most psycopaths will be caught by someone in their lifetime, but if they learn from that experience, they could well go to their graves without anyone finding out their nature ever again. If deception is good enough, it doesn't matter how hard someone looks, they will not discover the answer.

[Skyangel]

My point is that if a person judges another person to be psycopathic in the first place, it would seem obvious that they are detecting something different about them from the start. It really makes no difference what abnormalities any person might have, lies and deceptions eventually get discovered by those who want to know the truth and search for it, no matter how high an IQ the deceiver might have.

This is a blanket statement though that does not describe all deception. If I tell someone that I like their haircut when in fact I hate it, they will never know I am lying. It doesn't matter how much they might want to know my true opinion, or how hard they search for it, they will never be able to tell that I do not like their haircut.

Most psycopaths will be caught by someone in their lifetime, but if they learn from that experience, they could well go to their graves without anyone finding out their nature ever again. If deception is good enough, it doesn't matter how hard someone looks, they will not discover the answer.

It really makes no difference to me if people like someone elses hair cut or not. It is not a matter of life or death and will not change the course of their life in any way so that type of a lie is quite irrelevant to anything at all except maybe the feelings of the person who wants to hear that all people like their hair cut. If people tell each other what they want to hear, they might be doing it to make them feel good or because they know they can't handle the truth or the truth might hurt them or upset them too much. However if the person who did not like the hair cut tells someone else the truth that they don't like their hair cut and the one who was told otherwise finds out, they end up being caught in their lie, so if people dont want to be caught contradicting themselves, they better stick to the same story and tell everyone the same thing or have a good explanation for the contradiction.

I agree if the deception is good enough, some people will never discover the Truth even if it is staring them in the face. This is the way the bible deceives those who reject the Truth in it. They can read it till they are blue in the face and still call it a fairy tale because the Truth is hidden from them by God Himself and unless God reveals it to them, they will never see it. God knows whos hearts are sincere about wanting to know the Truth and those who are not and the bible clearly states that those who deny and reject the Truth will be be deluded by God Himself and unable to see the Truth even if it stands up and talks directly to them and tells them "I am the Truth" They still won't believe it and will "crucify" it anyway.

[ahigherway]

Hi Skyangel,
(Sorry, I've been away from debating here for a few days..)

My thought today is, if there is so much deception today, and it is only God who can help us to get out of it, then perhaps He desires this confusion in order to free man of responsability and free him from it "no charge."

Any thoughts?

Blessings,
brian

[Skyangel]

Hi Skyangel,
(Sorry, I've been away from debating here for a few days..)

My thought today is, if there is so much deception today, and it is only God who can help us to get out of it, then perhaps He desires this confusion in order to free man of responsability and free him from it "no charge."

Any thoughts?

Blessings,
brian

How does confusion free man from responsibility?

[ahigherway]

Hi Skyangel,
(Sorry, I've been away from debating here for a few days..)

My thought today is, if there is so much deception today, and it is only God who can help us to get out of it, then perhaps He desires this confusion in order to free man of responsability and free him from it "no charge."

Any thoughts?

Blessings,
brian

How does confusion free man from responsibility?

Hi Skyangel,
well, if the world is deceived from believing in God, or recognizing Him, etc., then they cannot justly be "punished" for not knowing.

Just a thought..

Blessings,
brian

[Skyangel]

Hi Skyangel,
(Sorry, I've been away from debating here for a few days..)

My thought today is, if there is so much deception today, and it is only God who can help us to get out of it, then perhaps He desires this confusion in order to free man of responsability and free him from it "no charge."

Any thoughts?

Blessings,
brian

How does confusion free man from responsibility?

Hi Skyangel,
well, if the world is deceived from believing in God, or recognizing Him, etc., then they cannot justly be "punished" for not knowing.

Just a thought..

Blessings,
brian

I have a friend who is reading this thread as a visitor and this is what he said to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"How does confusion free man from responsibility?"

in much the same way as the drink frees the drunkard...

There are those of the many
and there are those of the few

only those of the few can "see" the "whole coin of God" as they are OF that "coin" of the One Truth that sets us free from the bondage of deceptions and lies.

most are not interested in GROWING UP and taking on the responsibility that goes along with being a mature spiritual adult that seeks the wisdom of the Truth of God...
--------------------------------------------------------------

These are my own words again...

Thinking about your statement,
If the world is deceived from believing in God, or recognizing Him, some might blame God for deceiving them but the choice to be deceived is theirs since God also gives them a choice to not be deceived. God does not punish people for what they do not know or understand any more than you would punish a child for not knowing or understanding something but God makes sure all people are well informed of the consequences of their actions and basically tells them not to be stupid or they will suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.

Think about it. God does not punish them for the stupidity but the suffering of the consequences is the result of their own actions. They can blame no one but themselves for it.

The consequence of rejecting Truth is to be deceived. That is all there is to it.
God says do not be deceived. How does one accomplish not being deceived? Simply by accepting Truth and rejecting that which gets in the way of reality.

Confusion does not free the man from responsibility of remaining unconfused any more than getting drunk frees a man from the responsibility to remain sober.
Some people are just addicted to confusion in the same way a drunk gets addicted to alcohol and then they want to pass the blame onto someone else for their stupidity instead of taking responsibility for themselves and their own foolishness.

Every single man on earth knows God is in Him. His own conscience and intuition tells him that fact. Some simply prefer to ignore their conscience and intuition and reject it than listen to it. They chose to act like fools and therefore suffer the consequences of their own actions.
Nothing sets them free from those consequences since the principle of reaping what we sow applies at all times regardless of whether you believe that Jesus sufferings take away yours or not.

The Truth is that the consequences of Jesus actions do not take away the consequences of anyone elses actions any more than me remaining sober makes a drunk sober. It will only make them sober if they follow my example of remaining sober.

This is the same principle that applies to Jesus. If people wish to be free from sin and foolishness, they need to follow Jesus example not just believe He is perfect, but also be perfect as the Father is perfect by following the example Jesus set.

[ahigherway]

Hi Skyangel,
(Sorry, I've been away from debating here for a few days..)

My thought today is, if there is so much deception today, and it is only God who can help us to get out of it, then perhaps He desires this confusion in order to free man of responsability and free him from it "no charge."

Any thoughts?

Blessings,
brian

How does confusion free man from responsibility?

Hi Skyangel,
well, if the world is deceived from believing in God, or recognizing Him, etc., then they cannot justly be "punished" for not knowing.

Just a thought..

Blessings,
brian

I have a friend who is reading this thread as a visitor and this is what he said to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"How does confusion free man from responsibility?"

in much the same way as the drink frees the drunkard...

There are those of the many
and there are those of the few

only those of the few can "see" the "whole coin of God" as they are OF that "coin" of the One Truth that sets us free from the bondage of deceptions and lies.

most are not interested in GROWING UP and taking on the responsibility that goes along with being a mature spiritual adult that seeks the wisdom of the Truth of God...
--------------------------------------------------------------

These are my own words again...

Thinking about your statement,
If the world is deceived from believing in God, or recognizing Him, some might blame God for deceiving them but the choice to be deceived is theirs since God also gives them a choice to not be deceived. God does not punish people for what they do not know or understand any more than you would punish a child for not knowing or understanding something but God makes sure all people are well informed of the consequences of their actions and basically tells them not to be stupid or they will suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.

Think about it. God does not punish them for the stupidity but the suffering of the consequences is the result of their own actions. They can blame no one but themselves for it.

The consequence of rejecting Truth is to be deceived. That is all there is to it.
God says do not be deceived. How does one accomplish not being deceived? Simply by accepting Truth and rejecting that which gets in the way of reality.

Confusion does not free the man from responsibility of remaining unconfused any more than getting drunk frees a man from the responsibility to remain sober.
Some people are just addicted to confusion in the same way a drunk gets addicted to alcohol and then they want to pass the blame onto someone else for their stupidity instead of taking responsibility for themselves and their own foolishness.

Every single man on earth knows God is in Him. His own conscience and intuition tells him that fact. Some simply prefer to ignore their conscience and intuition and reject it than listen to it. They chose to act like fools and therefore suffer the consequences of their own actions.
Nothing sets them free from those consequences since the principle of reaping what we sow applies at all times regardless of whether you believe that Jesus sufferings take away yours or not.

The Truth is that the consequences of Jesus actions do not take away the consequences of anyone elses actions any more than me remaining sober makes a drunk sober. It will only make them sober if they follow my example of remaining sober.

This is the same principle that applies to Jesus. If people wish to be free from sin and foolishness, they need to follow Jesus example not just believe He is perfect, but also be perfect as the Father is perfect by following the example Jesus set.

Hi Skyangel and hidden friend!
The analogy of the drunk is not wrong. I graduated with a degree in chemical dependency counseling, and worked several years in the field. (and loved it!)
Drunks and addicts CANNOT see the deception they are in, unless they "hit bottom" in some way. That "hitting bottom" is meeting with another reality, much like the young man who joins the military and then sees his friends get killed- he may then (but not always) see the truth, and consequently, the lie.

I disagree however, with the notion that "most are not interested.." If they are deceived, they cannot be interested, they have no other understanding.

Jesus spoke in parables in order to confuse the people. (Otherwise He would have spoken plainly.) He also had things that He "wanted" to say to His disciples, but couldn't, because they were "not ready to hear them."
So telling the truth requires the "right moment," not just telling it all the time. At least, this is how I'm seeing things..

The drunk who is saved is saved because he is not responsible for his drunkenness. He was truly lost and deceived.
Jesus came to save the lost.
This means that He came, found the lost, and saved them.
(At least, if He was "successful," then this seems to me to be the case.)

Blessings to both of you!
brian

[Skyangel]

Hi Skyangel and hidden friend!
The analogy of the drunk is not wrong. I graduated with a degree in chemical dependency counseling, and worked several years in the field. (and loved it!)
Drunks and addicts CANNOT see the deception they are in, unless they "hit bottom" in some way. That "hitting bottom" is meeting with another reality, much like the young man who joins the military and then sees his friends get killed- he may then (but not always) see the truth, and consequently, the lie.

I disagree however, with the notion that "most are not interested.." If they are deceived, they cannot be interested, they have no other understanding.

Jesus spoke in parables in order to confuse the people. (Otherwise He would have spoken plainly.) He also had things that He "wanted" to say to His disciples, but couldn't, because they were "not ready to hear them."
So telling the truth requires the "right moment," not just telling it all the time. At least, this is how I'm seeing things..

The drunk who is saved is saved because he is not responsible for his drunkenness. He was truly lost and deceived.
Jesus came to save the lost.
This means that He came, found the lost, and saved them.
(At least, if He was "successful," then this seems to me to be the case.)

Blessings to both of you!
brian

Drunks and addicts are fully aware that they are drunks or addicts no matter how much they try to fool themselves or others about it. Some might need to hit rock bottom before they finally admit it to themselves but they all know it deep down inside themselves. They are deceived because they want to be deceived. They do not want to face reality because it is too hard for them to face it. Their addiction is an escape from reality in the first place. If they did not want to escape or reject reality in the first place they would not end up an addict to begin with. Their addiction is the consequence of their own stupidity.

"Spiritual drunks " or "spiritual addicts" suffer the same kind of self deceptions in a spiritual way because they try to "escape" from reality and rather than "escaping" into drugs or alcohol they "escape" into religion and end up in religious delusions, false doctrines and deceptions.

All addicts are responsible for their own addiction. To say they are not is just making excuses for them.

Jesus never spoke in parables in order to confuse people. He did it in order to make them think harder than they do to challenge them to stop being lazy thinkers who always need explanations handed to them on a golden platter.
People need to be of a certain maturity before they can handle the Truth. Truth is like steak which is adult food not baby food. Babies cannot handle adult food.
They need to grow up a bit first.

Jesus did not save all the lost and neither did he heal all the sick he ever came across He only saved and healed those who came to Him and who asked to be saved and healed. No one is saved from anything unless they repent of their sins and stop doing them. To be saved from anything a person needs to follow the example of Jesus not just believe he "paid their bail".

If the whole world was saved there would no longer be any need for repentance since salvation would be automatic, but its not. Salvation is conditional.

Some people do not want to be "found". They prefer to be "lost" because they enjoy the life of the prodigal son. Not all of them turn back to the Father.

[ahigherway]

Hi Skyangel and hidden friend!
The analogy of the drunk is not wrong. I graduated with a degree in chemical dependency counseling, and worked several years in the field. (and loved it!)
Drunks and addicts CANNOT see the deception they are in, unless they "hit bottom" in some way. That "hitting bottom" is meeting with another reality, much like the young man who joins the military and then sees his friends get killed- he may then (but not always) see the truth, and consequently, the lie.

I disagree however, with the notion that "most are not interested.." If they are deceived, they cannot be interested, they have no other understanding.

Jesus spoke in parables in order to confuse the people. (Otherwise He would have spoken plainly.) He also had things that He "wanted" to say to His disciples, but couldn't, because they were "not ready to hear them."
So telling the truth requires the "right moment," not just telling it all the time. At least, this is how I'm seeing things..

The drunk who is saved is saved because he is not responsible for his drunkenness. He was truly lost and deceived.
Jesus came to save the lost.
This means that He came, found the lost, and saved them.
(At least, if He was "successful," then this seems to me to be the case.)

Blessings to both of you!
brian

Drunks and addicts are fully aware that they are drunks or addicts no matter how much they try to fool themselves or others about it. Some might need to hit rock bottom before they finally admit it to themselves but they all know it deep down inside themselves. They are deceived because they want to be deceived. They do not want to face reality because it is too hard for them to face it. Their addiction is an escape from reality in the first place. If they did not want to escape or reject reality in the first place they would not end up an addict to begin with. Their addiction is the consequence of their own stupidity.

"Spiritual drunks " or "spiritual addicts" suffer the same kind of self deceptions in a spiritual way because they try to "escape" from reality and rather than "escaping" into drugs or alcohol they "escape" into religion and end up in religious delusions, false doctrines and deceptions.

All addicts are responsible for their own addiction. To say they are not is just making excuses for them.

Jesus never spoke in parables in order to confuse people. He did it in order to make them think harder than they do to challenge them to stop being lazy thinkers who always need explanations handed to them on a golden platter.
People need to be of a certain maturity before they can handle the Truth. Truth is like steak which is adult food not baby food. Babies cannot handle adult food.
They need to grow up a bit first.

Jesus did not save all the lost and neither did he heal all the sick he ever came across He only saved and healed those who came to Him and who asked to be saved and healed. No one is saved from anything unless they repent of their sins and stop doing them. To be saved from anything a person needs to follow the example of Jesus not just believe he "paid their bail".

If the whole world was saved there would no longer be any need for repentance since salvation would be automatic, but its not. Salvation is conditional.

Some people do not want to be "found". They prefer to be "lost" because they enjoy the life of the prodigal son. Not all of them turn back to the Father.

Hi Skyangel,
well, I guess we must disagree in this respect. I do not agree that drunks and addicts "know" that they are deceived. There is also physical addiction, which is another story. Some don't quit because they may die by quitting, at least if they don't get medical help.
But their attraction to the substance is stronger than any other attraction, and I cannot blame them for their weakness. To me, they cannot be held responsabile.

I also think it is perfectly possible for Jesus Christ to save the world BEFORE people begin to repent.
That is also why I don't believe that some people don't "want" to be found. The example of the lost coin is analogous to this. Does the coin have to "want" to be found in order to be found?

Blessings,
brian

[Skyangel]

Hi Skyangel,
well, I guess we must disagree in this respect. I do not agree that drunks and addicts "know" that they are deceived. There is also physical addiction, which is another story. Some don't quit because they may die by quitting, at least if they don't get medical help.
But their attraction to the substance is stronger than any other attraction, and I cannot blame them for their weakness. To me, they cannot be held responsabile.

I also think it is perfectly possible for Jesus Christ to save the world BEFORE people begin to repent.
That is also why I don't believe that some people don't "want" to be found. The example of the lost coin is analogous to this. Does the coin have to "want" to be found in order to be found?

Blessings,
brian

Drunks and addicts know they are drunks and addicts. They deceive themselves if they try to fool themselves that they are not drunks and addicts. I am talking about their problem with their addiction which they are aware of themselves not about any other deceptions in their lives. Some of them try to pretend they don't have a problem as if that will solve their problem by denying it.
All people are responsible for their own foolishness and can be held responsible for it. No one else is responsible for other peoples foolishness or stupidity, no matter who they wish to blame.

Jesus did not save the whole world before people repent any more than throwing a life boat into the ocean saves people before they drown. If people do not get into the boat they will drown. The boat is the "saviour" but does not force people into it. People need to choose to get into it or be helped into it by other people who are in it. The boat does nothing at all but provide the source of salvation.
Jesus is the Way to the Truth in Life and people must choose to walk in that way or reject that way of Life. Jesus or God will not force anyone to be saved. God gave mankind a choice to do the right thing or the wrong thing and will never take that choice away from them.

Professional fools of choice are not interested in leaving the ways of being a fool behind them anymore than a drunkard is interested in leaving the ways of the drink behind them.
Sometimes they might agree that they are a fool, but most times they will try and place the blame else wheres so that they may continue on the path that they have chosen as their personal preference and way of life.

Most "drunkards" that "leave the drink behind them", replace it with something else like religious doctrine and ritual and then they spend their time trying to stay in between the two and call it being sober.

Most people choose to try and believe that ALL are confused and that some are just less confused then others as they try to justify themselves in the process of playing make believe and pretend while trying to have some 'fun" and "escape" the real world that bothers their denial.

As for the coin analogy and parable. Obviously no coin can possibly want to be found since no coin has a will of its own in the first place and can want nothing at all. Therefore what makes you think the coin necessarily represents a person in the first place?
That parable is talking about a woman finding a coin. Since when does Jesus represent Himself or the Father with the analogy of a woman?
He is the shepherd who finds the sheep who is bleating, crying out, for his master or the father waiting for the prodigal Son to return by his own choice but He is not the woman looking for a coin.
The way I see it, that parable is about the church ( woman ) and the coin is the treasure the church ( woman ) is searching for. The coin represents the kingdom of heaven, the pearl of great price. The treasure of Truth.
I do not see it representing any lost person. The coin represents the Word of God, The Truth which is hidden from those who do not search for it with all their hearts.
Those who search will find it and those who do not will not find it.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

The three parables in Luke 15 represent
1.Jesus searching for the lost who are crying out to be found because they can't find their own way home and need help.
2. The prodigal who knows his own way home and eventually choses to go home of his own free will as the father waits for his return and does not go chasing him or looking for him.
3. The person who searches for Truth or for God and finds Him instead of Jesus/Truth /God finding them.

All aspects are covered but in all of them no one is ever found unless they want to be found and no one returns to the father unless they choose to return of their own free will.

Jesus, the Truth obviously wants to be found but those who want to find it need to search for it with all their hearts.
Prodigal sons do not always want to go home. They have a choice to go home or not.

If Jesus had automatically saved the whole world there would be no need to make any choice, no need to accept or believe Jesus ( Truth ), no need for repentance, no need to turn away from deception or lies, no need to follow anyones example, no need for the gospel. All would be automatic with no necessity for man to make any effort to make any choices whatsoever.
No man can get out of taking responsibility for his own actions that easily. All actions and choices still have consequences. The wages of sin is always death. That never changes.
None are free from making their own choices. If people were set free from making choices they would be robots who could not think for themselves at all.
Are you suggesting no "lost" person can think for themselves and no sinners or fools can choose to repent of sin or foolishness?