6000 year old (or so) universe

[McCulloch]

The bible never claims that the universe is 6000 years old.

How old is the universe according to the writers of the Bible? Do they provide any information? How much of the data reported as fact does one have to ignore to believe that the Biblical writers would allow for a billions of years old universe?

[myth-one.com]

The point is that there is nothing in Genesis 1:1-2 that points to the earth as a formless waste having been created as such by God.

I agree.

There is no reason at all to assume the existence of a complete world before the creation events of Genesis 3 and on.

Yes there absolutely is! Here it is again:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

"Now" is after "In the beginning." So God created the heavens and the earth and now the earth was formless, empty, and dark. If it is in such a state now, the implication is that it was not always that way. But lets continue. At the conclusion of His creations in Genesis, God summarizes His efforts as follows:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

God is said to have created the earth in the beginning, and everything God created was good, therefore the earth was good when created. If the earth was created as good, then it had to have deteriorated to the conditions listed in verse two! If something is created as good, the only way it can become something less than good is to deteriorate. So the only logical conclusion is that Genesis 1:3 begins a remaking of a decimated earth, or recreation. Other scriptures confirm this scenario:

Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they (mankind) are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Mankind was created in Genesis, but the earth was renewed. This will not be the last remake of the earth. Jesus ascended to Heaven and is creating a new place for the believers:

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

A new earth will descend from Heaven after judgment is completed:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This new earth is necessary because under mankind the present recreated earth will once again reach a state similar to that described in Genesis 1:2:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So there will be three creation processes involving the earth: the original creation in Genesis 1:1, the recreation of the earth begun in Genesis 1:3, and the new earth from Heaven described in Revelation 21:1-2.

Because at this point you have not presented an argument that would even satisfy most theist much less non-theist.

My desire is to understand the scriptures, not to satisfy theists or non-theists.

[Slopeshoulder]

I don't think the bible claims anything about the age of the universe or even how it was made. I think only some readers claim that.
I think the Bible contains a record of one ancient people's experience seen through a montheistic lens with the intention of shaping a community. The idea that it is anything else strikes me as foolhardy. I never ever came across discussions liek this thread in all my years formally studying religion.

[myth-one.com]

I don't think the bible claims anything about the age of the universe or even how it was made.

I agree.

I never ever came across discussions like this thread in all my years formally studying religion.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Strange that not even one of those fresh, young, questioning minds desiring to understand the scriptures ever raised the question as to why God created the earth "without form, and void; and dark."

[Slopeshoulder]

I don't think the bible claims anything about the age of the universe or even how it was made.

I agree.

I never ever came across discussions like this thread in all my years formally studying religion.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Strange that not even one of those fresh, young, questioning minds desiring to understand the scriptures ever raised the question as to why God created the earth "without form, and void; and dark."

Perhaps it was adressed for its theological meaning, but i musta missed that class.

[myth-one.com]

I never ever came across discussions like this thread in all my years formally studying religion.

Strange that not even one of those fresh, young, questioning minds desiring to understand the scriptures ever raised the question as to why God created the earth "without form, and void; and dark."

Perhaps it was adressed for its theological meaning, but i musta missed that class.

The first two verses of the Bible have this thread at somewhat of a standstill. Perhaps with your formal religion studies you could tell us any comments you have, even though the question never arose during any of your classes. Here's the dilemmna:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

It appears that God created the earth as "without form, and void; and dark."
But with your

[whirlwind]

I don't think the bible claims anything about the age of the universe or even how it was made.

I agree.

I never ever came across discussions like this thread in all my years formally studying religion.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Strange that not even one of those fresh, young, questioning minds desiring to understand the scriptures ever raised the question as to why God created the earth "without form, and void; and dark."

He didn't create it as such....

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

[Goat]

He didn't create it as such....

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Uh, you are taking the two verses out of context, and as such, they have no bearing on each other.

Isaiah is a claim for the purpose that God formed the earth.

Genesis is talking about what God made the earth from, and does not discuss a purpose.

[whirlwind]

He didn't create it as such....

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Uh, you are taking the two verses out of context, and as such, they have no bearing on each other.

Isaiah is a claim for the purpose that God formed the earth.

Genesis is talking about what God made the earth from, and does not discuss a purpose.

In Isaiah we're told "He formed it to be inhabited." In Genesis we're told....

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was (became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The earth became without form after being formed to be inhabited. Was there a previous age...the age in which "God created the heaven and the earth?" The age in which Satan rebelled?

Remember, Satan was already in his fallen state when we are first introduced to him in the garden.

To me it is obvious that the earth is millions or billions of years old and it doesn't in anyway disagree with the Bible. When...

......"the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light:" and there was light. [Gen.1:2-3]

...this present age began. Who knows how much time passed from the creation until that event? I place the span of this age at 14,000 years.

[Goat]

He didn't create it as such....

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Uh, you are taking the two verses out of context, and as such, they have no bearing on each other.

Isaiah is a claim for the purpose that God formed the earth.

Genesis is talking about what God made the earth from, and does not discuss a purpose.

In Isaiah we're told "He formed it to be inhabited." In Genesis we're told....

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was (became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The earth became without form after being formed to be inhabited. Was there a previous age...the age in which "God created the heaven and the earth?" The age in which Satan rebelled?

Remember, Satan was already in his fallen state when we are first introduced to him in the garden.

To me it is obvious that the earth is millions or billions of years old and it doesn't in anyway disagree with the Bible. When...

......"the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light:" and there was light. [Gen.1:2-3]

...this present age began. Who knows how much time passed from the creation until that event? I place the span of this age at 14,000 years.

You are adding 'became'.. it specifically says 'The earth was without form and void', and 'God separated the earth from the waters'.

In the context of the ancient Hebrews, this symbolized that God formed (as a potter forms clay) the earth by separating order (the earth) from Chaos (the deep waters).

[Metatron]

The earth became without form after being formed to be inhabited. Was there a previous age...the age in which "God created the heaven and the earth?" The age in which Satan rebelled?

Remember, Satan was already in his fallen state when we are first introduced to him in the garden.

Sorry, try again. There's not a single reference to Satan in the book of Genesis, much less at the Garden of Eden. There is a reference to a talking snake who is cursed along with all other snakes for his alleged role in the Adam and Eve debacle.

Also, Satan shows up in the book of Job as an angel hanging out with God and other angels and does the whole testing of faith thing on Job at God's direct order. Not exactly evidence that he was involved in some sort of rebellion, especially not before man's existence.