The Definition of God

[Delphi]

God is often defined as having various extraordinary characteristics. Infinitely loving, all powerful, omniscient, the creator of the Universe, etc.

How can we know that this is indeed true? How can we verify such grandiose assertions? No greater claims could possibly be made!

Normally, we make definitions based on verifiable evidence and observation. For example, we define a giraffe as being a large four-legged grazing mammal with a long neck, hooves, a mouth, a tongue, teeth, and two eyes. We can rationally define a giraffe this way based on verifiable observation. We define a giraffe by going out and finding a giraffe, then defining it based on its attributes.

Yet somehow, God is defined in the opposite manner. We do not go out and find god and define it based on its attributes. Instead, we apply god's characteristics to him without ever observing god. Definitions seem to fabricated out of imagination. I find this extremely dubious.

It seems to me that we are applying these definitions to the concept of a god. We cannot verify nor falsify these attributes.

What is going on here?

[onewithhim]

The Message is not a word-for-word translation but maybe a thought for thought---the translator's thoughts. He should not have added "Jesus is both true God..." The verses at I John 5:20 are referring to God, the Father, whose SON Jesus is.

The MESSAGE helps us understand what that verse means in a thought for thought translation.
And there are many other translations that said so.

1Jn 5:20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life. (GOD'S WORD Translation)

You didn't answer my question. Should we set aside Jesus' own words when he said to the Father---"You are the only true God"? (John 17:3)

Yes, but it does not end there, it is followed by "and Jesus Christ".

The sentence doesn't read "you are the only true God and Jesus Christ." The only true God is the Father, to whom Jesus prayed, and to be saved one must get to know the Father and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent. Nowhere does it suggest that Jesus Christ is the only true God.

And why there is an "and"?

To complete the thought that one must get to know Jesus Christ also. It doesn't suggest that he is God. We must know Jesus Christ whom the Father, the one true God, has sent. That is why there is "and."

And it doesn't suggest that Jesus is not God also.
And the Father wants us to get to know Jesus Christ also in Heb 1:8,9.

Exactly. That's what I just said.

I mean the Father wants us to get to know Jesus Christ as God also in Heb 1:8,9.
And Jesus as the Almighty, who is to come, died but made alive. (Rev 1:8,17 and 18).

No the Father does not want us to know that Jesus is God. There is nothing in Hebrews 1:8,9 that indicates that at all. Rather it indicates that Jesus HAS a God . Verse 9 says: "That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners." That looks like Jesus has a God that has anointed him. He didn't anoint himself did he? (See Isaiah 61:1 that says: "The spirit of the Sovereign Lord YHWH is upon me [Jesus], for the reason that YHWH has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted..." etc.) (Young's Literal Translation; The Interlinear Bible/Hendrickson; the American Standard Bible; the New Jerusalem Bible)

Jesus applied that Scripture to himself at Luke 4:16-21. He was anointed and sent to earth by YHWH [Jehovah].

Jesus is not the Almighty who died but was made alive. God cannot die. He is the Source of life and existence. If He died everything would be gone. The Almighty is Jehovah at Revelation 1:8. Jesus is not speaking here. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament (1974) says: It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here...There is no real incongruity in supposing that the writer here meant to refer to God[YHWH] as such." (Bracket mine)

[Capbook]

The MESSAGE helps us understand what that verse means in a thought for thought translation.
And there are many other translations that said so.

1Jn 5:20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life. (GOD'S WORD Translation)

You didn't answer my question. Should we set aside Jesus' own words when he said to the Father---"You are the only true God"? (John 17:3)

Yes, but it does not end there, it is followed by "and Jesus Christ".

The sentence doesn't read "you are the only true God and Jesus Christ." The only true God is the Father, to whom Jesus prayed, and to be saved one must get to know the Father and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent. Nowhere does it suggest that Jesus Christ is the only true God.

And why there is an "and"?

To complete the thought that one must get to know Jesus Christ also. It doesn't suggest that he is God. We must know Jesus Christ whom the Father, the one true God, has sent. That is why there is "and."

And it doesn't suggest that Jesus is not God also.
And the Father wants us to get to know Jesus Christ also in Heb 1:8,9.

Exactly. That's what I just said.

I mean the Father wants us to get to know Jesus Christ as God also in Heb 1:8,9.
And Jesus as the Almighty, who is to come, died but made alive. (Rev 1:8,17 and 18).

No the Father does not want us to know that Jesus is God. There is nothing in Hebrews 1:8,9 that indicates that at all. Rather it indicates that Jesus HAS a God . Verse 9 says: "That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners." That looks like Jesus has a God that has anointed him. He didn't anoint himself did he? (See Isaiah 61:1 that says: "The spirit of the Sovereign Lord YHWH is upon me [Jesus], for the reason that YHWH has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted..." etc.) (Young's Literal Translation; The Interlinear Bible/Hendrickson; the American Standard Bible; the New Jerusalem Bible)

Jesus applied that Scripture to himself at Luke 4:16-21. He was anointed and sent to earth by YHWH [Jehovah].

Jesus is not the Almighty who died but was made alive. God cannot die. He is the Source of life and existence. If He died everything would be gone. The Almighty is Jehovah at Revelation 1:8. Jesus is not speaking here. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament (1974) says: It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here...There is no real incongruity in supposing that the writer here meant to refer to God[YHWH] as such." (Bracket mine)

Who does the Father said to "God" colored red below? (Heb 1:9)
And who does say "the Almighty" in Rev 1:8?
My KJV colored red the phrase just like below.

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV

Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #242]

The red letters in the KJV were decided on by men, and they already had the view that Jesus was God. Their work shows a bias in translating. Hebrews 1:8,9 applies to the Father, Jehovah as does Revelation 1:8. We can be sure of this because it is Jehovah's thoughts and words that are being transmitted to the Apostle John through Jesus. (See verse 1:1 in Revelation: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him..." It's all the Father's words to John through Jesus. So the Father says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega...the Almighty" in verse 8.) Those are His words to Jesus to give to John.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #242]

The red letters in the KJV were decided on by men, and they already had the view that Jesus was God. Their work shows a bias in translating. Hebrews 1:8,9 applies to the Father, Jehovah as does Revelation 1:8. We can be sure of this because it is Jehovah's thoughts and words that are being transmitted to the Apostle John through Jesus. (See verse 1:1 in Revelation: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him..." It's all the Father's words to John through Jesus. So the Father says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega...the Almighty" in verse 8.) Those are His words to Jesus to give to John.

You did no answer my question.
Who does the "God" I colored red refers to?

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #242]

The red letters in the KJV were decided on by men, and they already had the view that Jesus was God. Their work shows a bias in translating. Hebrews 1:8,9 applies to the Father, Jehovah as does Revelation 1:8. We can be sure of this because it is Jehovah's thoughts and words that are being transmitted to the Apostle John through Jesus. (See verse 1:1 in Revelation: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him..." It's all the Father's words to John through Jesus. So the Father says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega...the Almighty" in verse 8.) Those are His words to Jesus to give to John.

You did no answer my question.
Who does the "God" I colored red refers to?

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV

It refers to Jehovah, the only true God. (John 17:3)

[John17_3]

[Replying to Delphi in post #1]

God is often defined as having various extraordinary characteristics. Infinitely loving, all powerful, omniscient, the creator of the Universe, etc.

How can we know that this is indeed true? How can we verify such grandiose assertions? No greater claims could possibly be made!

We verify things be looking for evidence that support its truthfulness.
For example, scientists went looking for evidence to verify the claims that were made by many a scientist, on how life got here, They are still looking for such evidence.

Normally, we make definitions based on verifiable evidence and observation. For example, we define a giraffe as being a large four-legged grazing mammal with a long neck, hooves, a mouth, a tongue, teeth, and two eyes. We can rationally define a giraffe this way based on verifiable observation. We define a giraffe by going out and finding a giraffe, then defining it based on its attributes.

I've not heard this before. Are you sure this is true?
When was a "a large four-legged grazing mammal with a long neck, hooves, a mouth, a tongue, teeth, and two eyes" defined as a giraffe?

Yet somehow, God is defined in the opposite manner. We do not go out and find god and define it based on its attributes. Instead, we apply god's characteristics to him without ever observing god. Definitions seem to fabricated out of imagination. I find this extremely dubious.

Consider the question above.
When doing so, we realize that what you said here, is not true.
When was this one "having various extraordinary characteristics. Infinitely loving, all powerful, omniscient, the creator of the Universe", defined as God?

If you answer the first question correctly, you might be able to answer this one.

It seems to me that we are applying these definitions to the concept of a god. We cannot verify nor falsify these attributes.

We actually can, and have done so.

What is going on here?

Nothing out of the ordinary.

The names of all animals were given them long before man found fossils.
No one questioned why a fossil fitted the name they used for that particular animal.
We only have to think about one example, to get an idea of millions of them.

The hippo was also known to the Greeks and Romans. The Greek historian Herodotus described the hippo in The Histories (written circa 440 BC) and the Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder wrote about the hippo in his encyclopedia Naturalis Historia (written circa 77 AD). The Yoruba people called the hippo erinmi, which means "elephant of the water".

The Latin word hippopotamus is derived from the ancient Greek ἱπποπόταμος (hippopótamos), from ἵππος (híppos) 'horse' and ποταμός (potamós) 'river', together meaning 'horse of the river'.

Animals had names before they were discovered by Herodotus.
Flying snakes, camel-killing ants, and other tall tales from the ancient Greek historian, Herodotus
Where did those names come from, is the question?

An ancient book, gives the answer. Genesis 2:19, 20
This book of history, goes back further than Herodotus - by about 100 centuries, and is actually the book that reveals the characteristics of God.
Why is this character called God? Who gave that title?

According to World History Encyclopedia...

'God' is the common word for the identity of a higher being in the universe beyond our world, the creator of all known existence, and who rules in conjunction with lower gradients of divinity (angels). In Greek, theikos ("divine") meant to be god-like in attributes or power. Theology is thus the study of the nature of God and God's relationship with humans.

The God of Israel
The book of Genesis in the Jewish Scriptures promoted this deity as the highest god of what would become the nation of Israel. God created and controlled the known elements of both the universe and everything on earth.

The Bible was originally writen in the Hebrew and Aramaic language (1315 B.C.E - 443 B.C.E), and later Greek.

I found this interesting article from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center - The Hebrew Word for God

There are three different words used in the Bible that are translated as God; אל (el), אלוה (elo'ah) and אלהים (elohiym). The first of these is a two-letter parent root and is the foundation for the other two that are derived from it.

Many people believe the Bible is a book of myth.
So, it is reasonable to consider is this is the case, or if the Bible is a reliable source of evidence for the character of God, that is described as the true and living God - the creator of heaven and earth, and all the things in them - the source of light and life.

Many believe, including myself, that the Bible is both reliable, and authentic, and is one source of solid evidence of the reality of God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to John17_3 in post #246]
The definition of "God" is very simple, if we're going to take the Bible seriously. At Psalm 83:18, in the King James Version, it says: "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth." He is the definition of "God."

He said to men: "Thou shalt have none other gods before me." (Deuteronomy 5:7, KJV)

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #242]

The red letters in the KJV were decided on by men, and they already had the view that Jesus was God. Their work shows a bias in translating. Hebrews 1:8,9 applies to the Father, Jehovah as does Revelation 1:8. We can be sure of this because it is Jehovah's thoughts and words that are being transmitted to the Apostle John through Jesus. (See verse 1:1 in Revelation: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him..." It's all the Father's words to John through Jesus. So the Father says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega...the Almighty" in verse 8.) Those are His words to Jesus to give to John.

You did no answer my question.
Who does the "God" I colored red refers to?

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV

It refers to Jehovah, the only true God. (John 17:3)

The "God" I colored red (v.9), as to you refers to Jehovah?
Would you accept the verse would be, "therefore God the Father, even thy God the Father"?

[armchairscholar]

God is often defined as having various extraordinary characteristics. Infinitely loving, all powerful, omniscient, the creator of the Universe, etc.

How can we know that this is indeed true? How can we verify such grandiose assertions? No greater claims could possibly be made!

Normally, we make definitions based on verifiable evidence and observation. For example, we define a giraffe as being a large four-legged grazing mammal with a long neck, hooves, a mouth, a tongue, teeth, and two eyes. We can rationally define a giraffe this way based on verifiable observation. We define a giraffe by going out and finding a giraffe, then defining it based on its attributes.

Yet somehow, God is defined in the opposite manner. We do not go out and find god and define it based on its attributes. Instead, we apply god's characteristics to him without ever observing god. Definitions seem to fabricated out of imagination. I find this extremely dubious.

It seems to me that we are applying these definitions to theconcept of a god. We cannot verify nor falsify these attributes.

What is going on here?

Our definitions of God stem from a different source than our earthly observations. They arise from a deep spiritual intuition, passed down through generations, and refined through contemplation, prayer, and personal experiences of the divine.

I recognize that our human minds naturally seek to categorize and define the world around us. Yet when it comes to the infinite, we must humbly acknowledge the limits of our finite understanding. Our attempts to define God are more akin to poetry than scientific classification – they are expressions of our deepest hopes, fears, and yearnings for meaning.

Historically, these definitions have evolved as humanity's collective wisdom has grown. They represent our best attempts to articulate the ineffable, to put into words what we sense in our hearts and souls.

The verifiability you seek comes not through empirical observation, but through the lived experiences of countless individuals who have encountered the divine in their lives. It is a different kind of knowing – one that transcends our usual methods of inquiry.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Capbook in post #242]

The red letters in the KJV were decided on by men, and they already had the view that Jesus was God. Their work shows a bias in translating. Hebrews 1:8,9 applies to the Father, Jehovah as does Revelation 1:8. We can be sure of this because it is Jehovah's thoughts and words that are being transmitted to the Apostle John through Jesus. (See verse 1:1 in Revelation: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him..." It's all the Father's words to John through Jesus. So the Father says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega...the Almighty" in verse 8.) Those are His words to Jesus to give to John.

You did no answer my question.
Who does the "God" I colored red refers to?

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
KJV

It refers to Jehovah, the only true God. (John 17:3)

The "God" I colored red (v.9), as to you refers to Jehovah?
Would you accept the verse would be, "therefore God the Father, even thy God the Father"?

Yes.