#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[myth-one.com]

(Deleted -- Hit reply, should have hit EDIT)

[myth-one.com]

Myth-one thinks God creates covenants that contain faults.

How can you trust God, or his new covenant, or his teachings, if you think God creates faulty covenants?

Myth-one thinks God creates covenants that contain faults, because that is exactly what God inspired to be written in the scriptures:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

The fault was with man, not God.

And the fault was that no man had ever qualified as an heir to everlasting life under that covenant because the wages of sin was death, and all men who had ever lived had sinned!

======================================================================

Let me add that the fault in the first testament was fixed in the New Testament by allowing the only person who ever became an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament to offer His inheritance as a gift to whosoever believeth in Him as their Savior.

Therefore, sin is no longer an impediment to mankind's salvation:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

We must now believe in Jesus Christ to inherit eternal life. Upon creating a New Testament, the first covenant became the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

Think of the worst person you can imagine; mass murderers, Adolf Hitler, mother-in-laws, dictators, some politician, etc, etc. etc. Those people could end up in the Kingdom of God!

Now think of the best person you know -- Mom, dad, husband, wife, Ghandi, King David, the twelve apostles, etc.

They could not gain everlasting life under the original covenant.

That was the flaw.

It has now been fixed.

[PinSeeker]

Annihilation is quite obvious in the Scriptures.

In your opinion. Yes, I fully understand that.

It is death that really isn't death that is not intimated.

Well this is true, for sure, but what the nature of that death truly is is the issue.

When the Bible says "death" it means no life. You would argue with that.

Never would I argue with that; that's merely what is being foisted upon me.

When it says "destroyed" you don't think it means what it clearly is intimating---that the person is no longer a living, functioning person.

Well, yes and no:

• 1. It's not "clearly intimating" what you think it to be clearly intimating...

... and:

• 2. It's not that "the person is no longer a living, functioning person," but rather a dead, but functioning, person. Yes, I understand that you think that's an oxymoron of sorts, but that is surely not the case.

It is understood to be a word that describes obliteration.

By you and other like-minded folks, sure. As I have said, 'destroyed' can certainly mean that, and does in many contexts, but not the Bible's, at least in the instances we have been discussing. As I have said... and this cannot be disagreed with with any modicum of credibility... 'destroyed' can also refer to something that is utterly ruined, desolated and without hope improvement of circumstance. And this is what the proper Biblical definition of 'destroyed' is. And it most assuredly is a death, and a permanent condition (of course).

How can it mean that a person is not really destroyed but lives on in torment?

See above.

The word "torment" has been explained, and it merely means an end to the person's ability to do anything.

Well that's not what 'torment' means at all. Rather, it means extreme pain or anguish of body or mind, or a source of vexation or pain, or the infliction of torture. Merriam-Webster says so... With regard to the Bible references we have been discussing, it is anguish of the mind, certainly, and physical as well as mental in terms of no rest and thirst, which is really more spiritual than physical, considering the fact that Christ Himself, as He said to the woman at the well in John 4, is the living water which permanently assuages thirst (John 4:10-14).

Death will truly take care of that.

Agreed, although not in the way that you suppose.

So I think we have shown that "death" and "destruction" do, in fact, intimate annihilation.

Nope. Regarding the Scriptures we have discussed (at length) quite the opposite.

If you've been paying attention.

I always pay attention, but it's not attention that's the issue, but rather intransigence, and regarding that, not me.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

-- the ridiculous assertion that the physical and spiritual cannot coexist -- all that was really needed from this particular passage was/is:

• "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."

This verse does not prove that the physical and spiritual bodies can coexist!

It does, most certainly. Look at the verse again. 'It' is a singular -- not plural -- pronoun. Let that sink in, myth-one. One thing, not two. And the verse is speaking of the abstract quality (not concrete) and nature of that one thing, not the thing itself. To that point, any one thing can have more than one abstract quality or nature. And that's exactly what Paul is saying there. So, as I have said, we Christians have both these natures in us now -- the "old man" and the "new man," as Paul calls them elsewhere in his second letter to these same Corinthians (and us) -- and the two natures, that of the world (carnal, the "old man") and that of the Spirit (spiritual, the "new man") are at war with each other. This war is what Paul is modeling in himself in Romans 7, when he says that the things he knows he should do he does not do, and the things he knows he should not do he does do, actually calling it a war within himself in verse 23. One day, that will no longer be the case. The "old man" will have completely passed away, and we will finally be completely just like Jesus and without sin forevermore.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

• "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."

This verse does not prove that the physical and spiritual bodies can coexist!

It does, most certainly. Look at the verse again. 'It' is a singular -- not plural -- pronoun. Let that sink in, myth-one. One thing, not two.

Yes, it is singular and refers to the body Christians will have before and after death.

And the verse is speaking of the abstract quality (not concrete) and nature of that one thing, not the thing itself.

These verses speak about the abstract qualities of the actual real bodies which Christians will have.

So, as I have said, we Christians have both these natures in us now -- the "old man" and the "new man," . . .

Good information -- but we are not discussing "natures." Paul is describing to Christians what they will become after their resurrection.

Natures are not resurrected from the grave, bodies are -- and that is what Paul is writing about to the Christians at Corinth.

There are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual.

The Christian body that is buried is a natural body (It is sown a natural body.)

The Christian body that is resurrection is a spiritual body (It is raised a spiritual body.)

. . . and we will finally be completely just like Jesus and without sin forevermore.

All Christians who are born again of the spirit at the first resurrection will become members of the Kingdom of God. They have now become equal unto the angels:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

Notice that Christians become "children of the resurrection." That is, they are born at the resurrection. They were born once before in their existence, their physical birth as humans. Since Christians are born a second time as a spiritual being at the resurrection, they are born again!

It is an actual, real experience, not simply some emotional occurrence experienced during your physical life on earth. What does the Bible state we must become to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

We are converted into spiritual, immortal bodies, as opposed to our present physical, mortal bodies. We are new spirits, and thus spiritual "children." This blessed birth occurs at the resurrection, thus we are children of the resurrection. We are little children also in that all sins we ever committed as humans have been forgiven. We are sinless, just as we were when first born as a human.

But no one can predict that we will remain "without sin forevermore" as you state.

We will remain under God's rules and commandments.

Sin is disobeying the commandments of God.

As long as angels have freedom to make choices, and they are given commandments from God, disobeying those commandments of God will always remain one of the possible choices!

So sin is always a possibility.

[PinSeeker]

Good information -- but we are not discussing "natures."

Well you aren't, but you should be, because Paul is. That's the point.

Paul is describing to Christians what they will become after their resurrection.

Sure, but as Paul told the Christians at Ephesus -- and the same applies to the Corinthians -- "...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ... and raised us up with Him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. So, this new spiritual (of the Spirit) nature they have in part now, because they have been spiritually resurrected.

There are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual.

Nope. Natures. One body that is natural first (the "old man," with a sinful nature) and then made spiritual (the "new man," in this life with a dual nature, because the sinful still remains -- this is why we still sin -- but in the life to come no longer containing the sinful nature but only the spiritual -- this is why we will no longer sin). For us Christians, in part now and in full at Christ's return.

The Christian body that is buried is a natural body (It is sown a natural body.)

We are born natural, with a sinful nature. If the person has become a Christian, then he/she also has a spiritual nature, as he or she was born of the Spirit at some point in their lives.

The Christian body that is resurrection is a spiritual body (It is raised a spiritual body.)

Agreed, both in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in Ephesians 2:4-7 and in the physical resurrection, which will take place when Jesus returns.

All Christians who are born again of the spirit at the first resurrection will become members of the Kingdom of God.

Of course. Thanks be to God, this is the case for those of us who are Christians now. We Christians were dead, but have been made alive (Paul [Ephesians 2], and Peter [1 Peter 1]... oh, and Jesus [John 3]).

They have now become equal unto the angels: "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)"

Nope. This is still future, referring to the second resurrection... those who are resurrected to eternal life, per John 5:28:29.

It is an actual, real experience...

Sure it is. Very much so.

But no one can predict that we will remain "without sin forevermore" as you state.

No one "predicts" it, but they believe God when He says it will be so. There will be no more sin in the new heaven and new earth.

So sin is always a possibility.

Not in the new heaven and new earth.

Oh, sin will be "possible," in the sense that we could sin if we were inclined to do so at all.

But we will be wholly and completely inclined against sin, completely of the Spirit, because the "old man," or old, natural, sinful nature will be no longer, for any of us; we will finally be rid of "him." In this sense, we will be incapable of sin. We will be as Jesus is, like Him, without sin.

My goodness. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Good information -- but we are not discussing "natures."

Well you aren't, but you should be, because Paul is. That's the point.

In the combined books of First and Second Corinthians, Paul uses the word "nature" one (1) time, and it had to do with hair length:

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? (1 Corinthians 11:14)

So Jesus did not have long hair as He is almost always presented.

There are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual.

Nope. Natures.

So you're saying God got it wrong?

The Christian body that is resurrection is a spiritual body (It is raised a spiritual body.)

Agreed, both in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in Ephesians 2:4-7 and in the physical resurrection, which will take place when Jesus returns.

For God sakes! There is no physical resurrection when Jesus returns! Remember when Paul said this "It is raised a spiritual body."

All Christians who are born again of the spirit at the first resurrection will become members of the Kingdom of God.

Of course.

They have now become equal unto the angels: "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)"

Nope. This is still future, referring to the second resurrection... those who are resurrected to eternal life, per John 5:28:29.

Only nonbelievers are resurrected at the second resurrection:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

But no one can predict that we will remain "without sin forevermore" as you state.

No one "predicts" it, but they believe God when He says it will be so. There will be no more sin in the new heaven and new earth.

Where does God say that?

So sin is always a possibility.

Not in the new heaven and new earth.

Oh, sin will be "possible," in the sense that we could sin if we were inclined to do so at all.

So sin will be possible & impossible.

But we will be wholly and completely inclined against sin, completely of the Spirit, because the "old man," or old, natural, sinful nature will be no longer, for any of us; we will finally be rid of "him." In this sense, we will be incapable of sin. We will be as Jesus is, like Him, without sin.

Sins of the flesh will be impossible -- as we are no longer flesh.

Sins in the Kingdom of God will be of a power struggle or insubordination type of offence, and of course, blasphemy. The best example is the rebellion of Satan and his angelic followers. Satan desired to become like the most high God, so he rebelled against God.

Wasn't that a sin?

[PinSeeker]

In the combined books of First and Second Corinthians, Paul uses the word "nature" one (1) time, and it had to do with hair length...

Two things here, myth-one:

1. In using the term 'natural' -- in the very passage we are talking about, Paul is using a term whose very root is 'nature.' The term 'natural' is derived directly from the root word 'nature.' Yes, this is the English translation we're speaking of, but it is true also of the original Greek. It's really even more clear in the Greek, but clear enough in the English (and every other language).

2. Paul wrote, myth-one, as you know, I'm sure, more than two books in the Bible, and he does not contradict himself (because God doesn't). You might check out (among other passages):

• Ephesians 2:1-3 -- he speaks directly of the sinful nature ("And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.")

• Romans 7:24-25, he differentiates between the two natures present in himself (and in us), saying, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

• Galatians 5:16-17 -- he again differentiates between the two natures present in us as Christians and exhorts us to "...walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do." Undoubtedly, the very fact that he exhorts us act on the new nature and not act on the old nature screams the fact that both natures are present within us as Christians.

So you're saying God got it wrong?

Of course not. That's all you, my friend. I mean, I know you don't mean to, but, well, it is what it is.

There is no physical resurrection when Jesus returns!

Well that assertion puts you in the same place as the Sadducees, who denied that there was a resurrection and whom Jesus rebuked for doing so. As for the physical resurrection, Jesus (and John, of course, in quoting Jesus) undoubtedly knew it to be physical when He said "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." And of course this is the Word of God. So in fact, you're the one saying "God got it wrong," which of course is not the case.

Remember when Paul said this "It is raised a spiritual body."

Right, but Paul did not contradict God. See above. So, necessarily, he is not saying we are raised an immaterial, non-physical being, as you suppose; he necessarily HAS to mean something other than how you understand it, otherwise he would be contradicting God, which, again, is not the case. He HAS to be talking about the nature of that physical body. And you even quote it here... a spirit-UAL body, a physical body that is SPIRITUAL, not a spirit, which would have no body, which would make what Paul said here a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron, which is surely not the case.

Only nonbelievers are resurrected at the second resurrection...

Nope. Yet again, Jesus said, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." One second resurrection, but two opposite results (for the opposing groups of folks).

There will be no more sin in the new heaven and new earth.

Where does God say that?

Ohhhh, let's see... in various ways:

• Isaiah 35: "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy. For waters break forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert; the burning sand shall become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water; in the haunt of jackals, where they lie down, the grass shall become reeds and rushes. And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there. And the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away."

• Matthew 7:21-23 (Jesus) -- “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ "

• Matthew 18:3 (Jesus) -- "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

• Romans 6:23 (Paul) -- "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (Paul) -- "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

• Revelation 21 (John) -- "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

• Revelation 22 (John) -- "No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever."

So sin will be possible & impossible.

Well, possible in the wooden sense that we could sin if we chose to do so, but not possible in that we will never make the choice to do so, because our nature will be wholly inclined to avoid sin of any kind.

Okay that's quite enough. Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

Paul said this "It is raised a spiritual body."

Right, but Paul did not contradict God. See above. So, necessarily, he is not saying we are raised an immaterial, non-physical being, as you suppose; he necessarily HAS to mean something other than how you understand it, otherwise he would be contradicting God, which, again, is not the case. He HAS to be talking about the nature of that physical body. And you even quote it here... a spirit-UAL body, a physical body that is SPIRITUAL, not a spirit, which would have no body, which would make what Paul said here a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron, which is surely not the case.

So you do not believe there is any such thing as a singular spiritual body. A spirit without a physical body is an oxymoron.

Is that what you are claiming?

[PinSeeker]

So you do not believe there is any such thing as a singular spiritual body. A spirit without a physical body is an oxymoron. Is that what you are claiming?

No, that's not what I'm claiming.

Grace and peace to you.