Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[face2face]

No, the claim isn't that the Son of God is the same person as the Father...but rather, the Son of God is of the same essence (nature, divinity), as the Father.

Do you know how many Trinitarians have failed to discern the difference?

Every single one!

Show me the teaching of Hypostasis from the Word of God?

For every attempt you make I will provide 5 verses that state Christ's nature was precisely the same as yours, no different!

Let's do this - you provide one verse that you believe is expounding the principles of Hypostasis and I'll provide 5 verses which clearly teach the truth about Christ's nature.

F2F

[SiNcE_1985]

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

There are no biblical proofs for the Trinity because you can't introduce a man-made doctrine and expect it to be supported by the inspired Word. This is why Trinitarians often struggle to find even the slightest resemblance to their doctrine, only to realize that the formula isn’t present. The complexity they claim is never mentioned in the Word of God, and this frustrates the life out of them.

I find it very entertaining.

F2F

Sure, it became a man-made doctrine when a man (Thomas), called Jesus "God" (John 20:28).

Actually, Jesus was God even before that, but you get the point.

[face2face]

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

There are no biblical proofs for the Trinity because you can't introduce a man-made doctrine and expect it to be supported by the inspired Word. This is why Trinitarians often struggle to find even the slightest resemblance to their doctrine, only to realize that the formula isn’t present. The complexity they claim is never mentioned in the Word of God, and this frustrates the life out of them.

I find it very entertaining.

F2F

Sure, it became a man-made doctrine when a man (Thomas), called Jesus "God" (John 20:28).

Actually, Jesus was God even before that, but you get the point.

You’ve just reinforced my point about the "slightest resemblance." Did you realize that would happen?

Trinitarians often fail to read the Word with nuance, disregarding context to impose their dogma onto the text. Even well-versed Trinitarians acknowledge that John 20:28 is a weak proof text. This suggests to me that you may not be as familiar with the teachings as you believe.

Thomas' confession acknowledges that Jesus truly rose from the dead, but it is not a declaration of Jesus as "God the Son." - sorry Since!

As a Jew, Thomas was using a mode of expression common in the Old Testament, where accredited representatives of God are referred to as "God." For instance, angels are called "God" in passages like Genesis 16:7, 22:8, 22:11, and Exodus 23:20, 21. Moses is referred to as a "god" in relation to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1, where "god" is translated from the Hebrew "elohim"). The term "Elohim," translated as "God," can also refer to the judges of Israel, as seen in Psalm 82:1, 6 and John 10:34. It is also translated as "judges" in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and "gods" (or "judges") in Exodus 22:28.

Earlier in this chapter, Jesus told Mary, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God" (John 20:17). Since Jesus was ascending to his God, it is clear that he was not claiming to be "Very God."

Here’s a free tip for you: Always read the context. The verses surrounding a passage often lead you to the truth. And whatever you do, never approach the Word with preconceived beliefs—it only shows you are unteachable when you do.

Further to the above, in the 1st century, Roman citizens commonly greeted each other with "Caesar is Lord," and Emperor Domitian required the title "Our Lord and God" in public documents, as well as "My Lord God Domitian" when addressed personally. When Thomas said "My Lord and my God," he did not mean it in the Trinitarian sense. Instead, his confession could have been a declaration of loyalty to God's Son and divine representative, possibly also a deliberate rejection of the Roman emperor cult.

Please know I am more than happy to lead you into truth on this subject so feel free to twist the Scripture all you like...I'll be here God willing to right the wrong.

In his service
F2F

[Capbook]

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

There are no biblical proofs for the Trinity because you can't introduce a man-made doctrine and expect it to be supported by the inspired Word. This is why Trinitarians often struggle to find even the slightest resemblance to their doctrine, only to realize that the formula isn’t present. The complexity they claim is never mentioned in the Word of God, and this frustrates the life out of them.

I find it very entertaining.

F2F

Sure, it became a man-made doctrine when a man (Thomas), called Jesus "God" (John 20:28).

Actually, Jesus was God even before that, but you get the point.

You’ve just reinforced my point about the "slightest resemblance." Did you realize that would happen?

Trinitarians often fail to read the Word with nuance, disregarding context to impose their dogma onto the text. Even well-versed Trinitarians acknowledge that John 20:28 is a weak proof text. This suggests to me that you may not be as familiar with the teachings as you believe.

Thomas' confession acknowledges that Jesus truly rose from the dead, but it is not a declaration of Jesus as "God the Son." - sorry Since!

As a Jew, Thomas was using a mode of expression common in the Old Testament, where accredited representatives of God are referred to as "God." For instance, angels are called "God" in passages like Genesis 16:7, 22:8, 22:11, and Exodus 23:20, 21. Moses is referred to as a "god" in relation to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1, where "god" is translated from the Hebrew "elohim"). The term "Elohim," translated as "God," can also refer to the judges of Israel, as seen in Psalm 82:1, 6 and John 10:34. It is also translated as "judges" in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and "gods" (or "judges") in Exodus 22:28.

Earlier in this chapter, Jesus told Mary, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God" (John 20:17). Since Jesus was ascending to his God, it is clear that he was not claiming to be "Very God."

Here’s a free tip for you: Always read the context. The verses surrounding a passage often lead you to the truth. And whatever you do, never approach the Word with preconceived beliefs—it only shows you are unteachable when you do.

Further to the above, in the 1st century, Roman citizens commonly greeted each other with "Caesar is Lord," and Emperor Domitian required the title "Our Lord and God" in public documents, as well as "My Lord God Domitian" when addressed personally. When Thomas said "My Lord and my God," he did not mean it in the Trinitarian sense. Instead, his confession could have been a declaration of loyalty to God's Son and divine representative, possibly also a deliberate rejection of the Roman emperor cult.

Please know I am more than happy to lead you into truth on this subject so feel free to twist the Scripture all you like...I'll be here God willing to right the wrong.

In his service
F2F

We cannot find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, same as the word "Bible" is nowhere in the OT and NT.
The definition of Trinity as one God in three persons, the concept can be discerned in Mat 28:19, where the mention of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in a (singular) "name" and the used of definite article "the," is used to refer to a specific or previously mentioned noun and to indicate that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. And why the three is also mentioned in 2 Cor 13:14? If the Holy Spirit is just the breath or force of the Father it need not to. Do you usually make known or introduce your breath or force to your friends? Just like what Jesus did in John 14:26?


Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2 Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

[face2face]

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

There are no biblical proofs for the Trinity because you can't introduce a man-made doctrine and expect it to be supported by the inspired Word. This is why Trinitarians often struggle to find even the slightest resemblance to their doctrine, only to realize that the formula isn’t present. The complexity they claim is never mentioned in the Word of God, and this frustrates the life out of them.

I find it very entertaining.

F2F

Sure, it became a man-made doctrine when a man (Thomas), called Jesus "God" (John 20:28).

Actually, Jesus was God even before that, but you get the point.

You’ve just reinforced my point about the "slightest resemblance." Did you realize that would happen?

Trinitarians often fail to read the Word with nuance, disregarding context to impose their dogma onto the text. Even well-versed Trinitarians acknowledge that John 20:28 is a weak proof text. This suggests to me that you may not be as familiar with the teachings as you believe.

Thomas' confession acknowledges that Jesus truly rose from the dead, but it is not a declaration of Jesus as "God the Son." - sorry Since!

As a Jew, Thomas was using a mode of expression common in the Old Testament, where accredited representatives of God are referred to as "God." For instance, angels are called "God" in passages like Genesis 16:7, 22:8, 22:11, and Exodus 23:20, 21. Moses is referred to as a "god" in relation to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1, where "god" is translated from the Hebrew "elohim"). The term "Elohim," translated as "God," can also refer to the judges of Israel, as seen in Psalm 82:1, 6 and John 10:34. It is also translated as "judges" in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and "gods" (or "judges") in Exodus 22:28.

Earlier in this chapter, Jesus told Mary, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God" (John 20:17). Since Jesus was ascending to his God, it is clear that he was not claiming to be "Very God."

Here’s a free tip for you: Always read the context. The verses surrounding a passage often lead you to the truth. And whatever you do, never approach the Word with preconceived beliefs—it only shows you are unteachable when you do.

Further to the above, in the 1st century, Roman citizens commonly greeted each other with "Caesar is Lord," and Emperor Domitian required the title "Our Lord and God" in public documents, as well as "My Lord God Domitian" when addressed personally. When Thomas said "My Lord and my God," he did not mean it in the Trinitarian sense. Instead, his confession could have been a declaration of loyalty to God's Son and divine representative, possibly also a deliberate rejection of the Roman emperor cult.

Please know I am more than happy to lead you into truth on this subject so feel free to twist the Scripture all you like...I'll be here God willing to right the wrong.

In his service
F2F

We cannot find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, same as the word "Bible" is nowhere in the OT and NT.

This is true, just because a word is not in the Bible it doesnt make it false.

The definition of Trinity as one God in three persons, the concept can be discerned in Mat 28:19, where the mention of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in a (singular) "name" and the used of definite article "the," is used to refer to a specific or previously mentioned noun and to indicate that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. And why the three is also mentioned in 2 Cor 13:14?

No one is arguing here that the Father, the Son and the HS are not in existence. Matthew 28:19 does not provide you with the formula you need to support your belief.

You do understand this right?

Here is what you need to find in order for your conviction to be establish as fact:

- Biblical proof that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God
- Biblical proof that God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons in one
being (“three hypostases in one ousia”, for those who prefer the classical formula)
- Biblical proof of the co‐eternity, co‐equality and consubstantiality of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

I am not merely requesting evidence of an undefined “threefoldness.” Biblical Unitarians can point to verses which state that the Father is the only true God, so Scripture’s definition of God clearly supports my position! But can you show me verses which state that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit comprise the only true God? If not, why not? Is this a weakness of your as‐yet‐undefined “implicit Trinitarianism”?

Also, how did you go with Phil 2?

F2F

[Capbook]

We cannot find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, same as the word "Bible" is nowhere in the OT and NT.

This is true, just because a word is not in the Bible it doesnt make it false.

Agree.

The definition of Trinity as one God in three persons, the concept can be discerned in Mat 28:19, where the mention of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in a (singular) "name" and the used of definite article "the," is used to refer to a specific or previously mentioned noun and to indicate that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. And why the three is also mentioned in 2 Cor 13:14?

No one is arguing here that the Father, the Son and the HS are not in existence. Matthew 28:19 does not provide you with the formula you need to support your belief.

You do understand this right?

Here is what you need to find in order for your conviction to be establish as fact:

- Biblical proof that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God
- Biblical proof that God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons in one
being (“three hypostases in one ousia”, for those who prefer the classical formula)
- Biblical proof of the co‐eternity, co‐equality and consubstantiality of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Jesus in John 1:18, by some literal and word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages (Hebrew and Greek) refer Jesus as God. The Holy Spirit is a person it has a will, able to think and reason, As God in Acts 5:34. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit as one implied in Mat 28:19 in the use of (singular) name.

(ESV) No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
(Literal Standard Version) No one has ever seen God; the only begotten God who is on the bosom of the Father—He has expounded Him.
(Updated ASV+) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.
(Lexham English Bible) No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.
(NAS95) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


I think it also necessary for me to ask you to prove that "Jesus is not God" from the written writ.

I am not merely requesting evidence of an undefined “threefoldness.” Biblical Unitarians can point to verses which state that the Father is the only true God, so Scripture’s definition of God clearly supports my position! But can you show me verses which state that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit comprise the only true God? If not, why not? Is this a weakness of your as‐yet‐undefined “implicit Trinitarianism”?

(Mat 28:19, 2Cor 13:14 and 1John 5:20) Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, confirmed by the Father in 1 John 5:11 that Jesus has the eternal life, and Jesus has that eternal life in 1 John 5:20.

Also, how did you go with Phil 2?

F2F

[/quote] Sorry I did not find your PM.

[face2face]

We cannot find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, same as the word "Bible" is nowhere in the OT and NT.

This is true, just because a word is not in the Bible it doesnt make it false.

Agree.

The definition of Trinity as one God in three persons, the concept can be discerned in Mat 28:19, where the mention of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in a (singular) "name" and the used of definite article "the," is used to refer to a specific or previously mentioned noun and to indicate that the identity of the noun is known to the reader. And why the three is also mentioned in 2 Cor 13:14?

No one is arguing here that the Father, the Son and the HS are not in existence. Matthew 28:19 does not provide you with the formula you need to support your belief.

You do understand this right?

Here is what you need to find in order for your conviction to be establish as fact:

- Biblical proof that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God
- Biblical proof that God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons in one
being (“three hypostases in one ousia”, for those who prefer the classical formula)
- Biblical proof of the co‐eternity, co‐equality and consubstantiality of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Jesus in John 1:18, by some literal and word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest degree of accuracy to the original languages (Hebrew and Greek) refer Jesus as God. The Holy Spirit is a person it has a will, able to think and reason, As God in Acts 5:34. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit as one implied in Mat 28:19 in the use of (singular) name.

(ESV) No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
(Literal Standard Version) No one has ever seen God; the only begotten God who is on the bosom of the Father—He has expounded Him.
(Updated ASV+) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.
(Lexham English Bible) No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known.
(NAS95) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.


I think it also necessary for me to ask you to prove that "Jesus is not God" from the written writ.

I am not merely requesting evidence of an undefined “threefoldness.” Biblical Unitarians can point to verses which state that the Father is the only true God, so Scripture’s definition of God clearly supports my position! But can you show me verses which state that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit comprise the only true God? If not, why not? Is this a weakness of your as‐yet‐undefined “implicit Trinitarianism”?

(Mat 28:19, 2Cor 13:14 and 1John 5:20) Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, confirmed by the Father in 1 John 5:11 that Jesus has the eternal life, and Jesus has that eternal life in 1 John 5:20.

Also, how did you go with Phil 2?

F2F

Sorry I did not find your PM.
[/quote]

If you hold this belief, you must be convinced of it yourself. Can you provide some real evidence to support it?

If you're unsure about the type of evidence I'm asking for, let me know, and I can explain it further.

I have to laugh at how you've chosen John 1:18—Trinitarians often pull out all their tricks! It's like those magicians at magic shows who pull a rabbit out of a hat.

I wonder if you're aware of the textual issues surrounding that verse. Are you naive, or is there something more intentional?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time

F2F

Check your inbox!

[face2face]

[Replying to Capbook in post #26]

More on John 1:18

An analysis of the manuscript evidence makes it challenging to determine which reading should be preferred. However, regardless of the chosen reading, the theological implications remain largely the same. Moses, as God's agent in delivering the law, was not granted direct intimacy with God. The Unique One, however, exists in a completely different category. This one is described as being in the "bosom" (kolpon, meaning "at the heart" or "side") of the Father, and he as revealed the very character of God to the world. In doing so, he has left no doubt about his ability to provide us with a deep and intimate understanding of the Father.

Paul would later write in 2 Corinthians 5:19 "that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

It's that message of reconciliation which is totally silent on triune dogma.

F2F

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #26]

More on John 1:18

An analysis of the manuscript evidence makes it challenging to determine which reading should be preferred. However, regardless of the chosen reading, the theological implications remain largely the same. Moses, as God's agent in delivering the law, was not granted direct intimacy with God. The Unique One, however, exists in a completely different category. This one is described as being in the "bosom" (kolpon, meaning "at the heart" or "side") of the Father, and he as revealed the very character of God to the world. In doing so, he has left no doubt about his ability to provide us with a deep and intimate understanding of the Father.

Yes, because Jesus is God. Jesus have said I and the Father are one. The Jews understood Him as affirming His equality with God, for they took up stones to punish Him for blasphemy Jhn 10:31, Jhn 10:33, and they said to Him that they understood Him as affirming that He was God, Jhn 10:33.

Paul would later write in 2 Corinthians 5:19 "that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

It's that message of reconciliation which is totally silent on triune dogma.

The believer's baptism which in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit, where begin a new born spiritual journey of every believer to eternal life through Jesus, and God's guidance through the Holy Spirit. The triune works for our salvation.

[face2face]

[Replying to Capbook in post #26]

More on John 1:18

An analysis of the manuscript evidence makes it challenging to determine which reading should be preferred. However, regardless of the chosen reading, the theological implications remain largely the same. Moses, as God's agent in delivering the law, was not granted direct intimacy with God. The Unique One, however, exists in a completely different category. This one is described as being in the "bosom" (kolpon, meaning "at the heart" or "side") of the Father, and he as revealed the very character of God to the world. In doing so, he has left no doubt about his ability to provide us with a deep and intimate understanding of the Father.

Yes, because Jesus is God. Jesus have said I and the Father are one. The Jews understood Him as affirming His equality with God, for they took up stones to punish Him for blasphemy Jhn 10:31, Jhn 10:33, and they said to Him that they understood Him as affirming that He was God, Jhn 10:33.

Paul would later write in 2 Corinthians 5:19 "that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation."

It's that message of reconciliation which is totally silent on triune dogma.

The believer's baptism which in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit, where begin a new born spiritual journey of every believer to eternal life through Jesus, and God's guidance through the Holy Spirit. The triune works for our salvation.

Jesus also prayed for us to be one with the Father and His Son...do believe yourself to be God also?

that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. John 17:21

What is in the Oneness that you are yet to understand?

F2F