Does Hell Exist?

[Data]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

[theophile]

Could we not say that Gehenna, and the lake of burning sulfur, takes the place of the grave / Hades / Sheol / hell in the age to come?

The Bible doesn't seem to suggest that the second type of death takes the place of the grave. As of right now it would seem they co-exist. Until the grave is tossed into the second death. The grave is an enemy of mankind. As of right now it is inevitable and unavoidable. Something has to be thrown into the second death by God himself and it is not an inevitable certainty to anyone that lives. So, I don't think we can say, in the strictest sense of definition, the lake of fire replaces the grave. What we can say is that the lake of fire will be the only type of death left.

When talking right now, I agree that the grave and the pit of burning sulfur co-exist. But at the end, the pit becomes the only grave left, and also the grave of the grave itself, which to your point leaves the second death as the only type of death left, and makes Gehenna, to my point, an uber-hell. A hell of hell itself.

If death's final destination is being 'brought to nothing' or being 'hurled into the lake of fire', the grave and death can't be tortured as these are just concepts. Then the lake of fire can only be symbolic of complete annihilation. Just as things tossed into Gehenna are burned never to be retrieved. Its the only description that is harmonious with other scriptures such as Ecc 9:5 and Ps 146:4 that describe the condition of anything dead, graveyard dead or lake of fire dead.

There are certain things consigned to Gehenna-hell that I don't think can die in the sense of complete annihilation, nor do I think everything sent there is necessarily dead. Thus torture is still an option.

For instance, at the end of Revelation, are there not still sinners, who were apparently just cast into Gehenna and second death, living outside the heavenly city? If not, why is it just a city and does it have a wall? The idea I think is that Gehenna is not just a grave but also a hell for at least some who are still alive. For whom it is literally a torture zone. (The lake of fire is implied to be outside the city, just as Gehenna was outside Jerusalem, and there is always a possibility its living denizens can be redeemed...)

In terms of something that can't be totally annihilated, it would be something along the lines of a spirit. Satan, I would argue, is the personification and real-world manifestation of a spirit, just as God is. You can reduce these to nothing, for a time, but they have a habit of re-emerging. Like an idea, you can't ever quite kill them...

(Satan was let out of the abyss after 1000 years right? I get that wasn't the second death, but it gets at this idea of possible re-emergence. i.e., there is always a chance that someone falls, even in the kingdom...)

The other note here is the two-fold aspect of Gehenna. First, as a place of idolatry, child sacrifice, etc. Second, as a dumping ground and place of final judgment. I think there's a development that makes sense between these too aspects, but the latter, or Gehenna as a dumping ground, is very grave-like in its imagery. i.e., it still very much fits the etymology of 'hell', and what many popularly believe of the notion. (Bodies heaped upon bodies, burning sulfur heaped upon them, etc. etc.)

As humans we personify things. Even dead things. We imagine a field on fire with dead bodies in it, we can't help but think those bodies are feeling the flames. But they are not. Those bodies are nothing more than lifeless bio-matter which will either decay or burn to ash. Genesis says it best, "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19) Many people can't accept that people are just dust. We are atoms. Humans are not spirit creatures wrapped in dust. We are completely dust and the dust that made us as people is what we return to after we die, no more no less.

Are there not sinners living outside the city after the second death? As in, not completely annihilated? As for all the dead bodies heaped out there, I agree. They're just dead.

[theophile]

Could we not say that Gehenna, and the lake of burning sulfur, takes the place of the grave / Hades / Sheol / hell in the age to come?

If it (the grave / Hades / Sheol / hell) is thrown into the lake then how is it not taking its place? Also, the founding of the world marking the beginning of the end times indicates that the age to come wouldn't exist until that time. For what does Christ have to do with Belial?

Did you mean to say 'not' here? i.e., what you say now seems to agree with my point, that Gehenna takes the place of Hades. It essentially becomes the grave of the grave, and the resting (and perhaps torture) place of all things consigned to the second death. As such, it takes the place of Hades, no? By becoming the ultimate hell?

That just as heaven and earth are made new at the end, so too a grave beyond the grave is established? i.e., an uber-hell? One where the grave or death itself can be put to rest? Along with Satan and all its minions?

Heaven and earth are made new, whereas death, Satan, the grave, et cetera are destroyed completely.

Yes, but you still have Gehenna and the lake of fire at the end. This is never destroyed. As such, it is the de facto hell of the age to come, or what hell becomes in the new heaven and earth. (It is by definition the grave of the grave, as well as of Satan, Satan's minions, and death itself.)

The other note here is the two-fold aspect of Gehenna. First, as a place of idolatry, child sacrifice, etc. Second, as a dumping ground and place of final judgment. I think there's a development that makes sense between these too aspects, but the latter, or Gehenna as a dumping ground, is very grave-like in its imagery. i.e., it still very much fits the etymology of 'hell', and what many popularly believe of the notion. (Bodies heaped upon bodies, burning sulfur heaped upon them, etc. etc.)

The Hebrew word sheol comes from the word shaal which means to ask or request. "The common receptacle or region of the dead; so-called from the insatiability of the grave, which is as it were always asking or craving more." - A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Samuel Pike, Cambridge, 1811, p. 148.

Sin equals death. Take that away and the grave (sheol, hades, hell) is no longer asking anything.

Does sin equal death? Or does sin beget death? I think it's more the latter. Through sin, death is brought into the world, and death is the wages of sin.

But I don't think sin, or the possibility of sin, is ever done away with completely or can be, if that's what you're saying. All sinners may be consigned to the second death because of sin, but that's not the same as saying sin itself is forever annihilated.

That said, I agree in principle with what you're saying here. Without sin, there would be less death in the world, and there would no longer be any reason to mete out death to the sinful.

[1213]

...
No, Gehenna is a literal valley used in a figurative sense. The lake of fire is a symbolic representation of the second death. ..

In Bible the Gehenna is a fire lake. I don't think that fits to the literal valley in any way, sorry.

Gehenna is not a fiery lake. It is the valley of garbage where they threw carcasses to burn up (completely, to no longer exist).

In the Bible it is a fire lake.

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna [hell], into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:43

The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur,...
Rev. 20:10

But, the fire is probably not the same as earthly fire, because:

And the tongue is a fire. The world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by Gehenna.
James 3:6

[1213]

...
No, Gehenna is a literal valley used in a figurative sense. The lake of fire is a symbolic representation of the second death. ..

In Bible the Gehenna is a fire lake. I don't think that fits to the literal valley in any way, sorry.

I don't think you are listening? Gehenna is a valley S and SW of ancient Jerusalem. The Lake of fire is symbolic for everlasting destruction. They aren't the same.

Sorry, I don't think there is any Biblical support for the idea that the fire is just symbolical. And even if it would be symbolical, it doesn't fit to the valley in ancient Jerusalem, because there is no symbolical fire that burns forever.

[Data]

Sorry, I don't think there is any Biblical support for the idea that the fire is just symbolical. And even if it would be symbolical, it doesn't fit to the valley in ancient Jerusalem, because there is no symbolical fire that burns forever.

There is no fire that burns forever which is one way of knowing it's symbolic. That and the fact that Satan and his demons are angels. Spirit creatures. Literal fire doesn't have any effect on them. Remember the angel in the burning bush.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Data in post #1]

The word hell is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word meaning “to conceal,” or “to cover” according to the Webster's dictionary.
This word is translated in the Hebrew Scriptures as sheol. In Greek, hades.
All of these words refer to what we call today, the grave.

So, in the strictest sense of the original meaning of the word, hell does exist.
What doesn't exist is a place where dead people (but not actually dead people) burn forever.

Definition of dead according to Webster's: "deprived of life : no longer alive"
Webster's calls alive, "still in existence, force, or operation".

Yet, the majority of people on the earth today think that a dead person is alive somehow. To call a dead person alive is an oxymoron.

What does the Bible say is the condition of the dead?
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all." - Ecc 9:5
"His spirit (ftn: 'breath') goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4

So the truth of the matter is, if a person is in the grave, "sheol, hades, hell" they are dead and buried. Simple as that. False religions will say otherwise.

I think there are two aspects of hell that should be considered:

What you say here, where hell is the grave and the nothingness of death.
But also more of a Gehenna-type hell. By which I mean a real hell on earth, where God has no say or place. Or where Jesus repeatedly says there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth, which simply cannot happen in the grave...

There is no "Gehenna-type hell." If "hell" (Hades) means the grave, there cannot be another "type" of hell. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is something the wicked will do once they find out they have been wrong and are destined to be destroyed. This probably will take place during the Great Tribulation.

[theophile]

[Replying to Data in post #1]

The word hell is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word meaning “to conceal,” or “to cover” according to the Webster's dictionary.
This word is translated in the Hebrew Scriptures as sheol. In Greek, hades.
All of these words refer to what we call today, the grave.

So, in the strictest sense of the original meaning of the word, hell does exist.
What doesn't exist is a place where dead people (but not actually dead people) burn forever.

Definition of dead according to Webster's: "deprived of life : no longer alive"
Webster's calls alive, "still in existence, force, or operation".

Yet, the majority of people on the earth today think that a dead person is alive somehow. To call a dead person alive is an oxymoron.

What does the Bible say is the condition of the dead?
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all." - Ecc 9:5
"His spirit (ftn: 'breath') goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4

So the truth of the matter is, if a person is in the grave, "sheol, hades, hell" they are dead and buried. Simple as that. False religions will say otherwise.

I think there are two aspects of hell that should be considered:

What you say here, where hell is the grave and the nothingness of death.
But also more of a Gehenna-type hell. By which I mean a real hell on earth, where God has no say or place. Or where Jesus repeatedly says there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth, which simply cannot happen in the grave...

There is no "Gehenna-type hell." If "hell" (Hades) means the grave, there cannot be another "type" of hell. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is something the wicked will do once they find out they have been wrong and are destined to be destroyed. This probably will take place during the Great Tribulation.

Gehenna / the lake of fire is the grave of the grave. Also of Satan, Satan's minions, and all sinners. Therefore it is by definition hell, no?

[tam]

Peace to you,

No, Gehenna is a literal valley used in a figurative sense. The lake of fire is a symbolic representation of the second death. Eternal destruction. No hope for resurrection. Satan, his demons and followers, death and hell (the grave) are figuratively thrown there to symbolize their eternal destruction. No more Satan, no more sin, no more death, no more grave.

I'd like to interject here that 2nd death does mean that a person that goes into the lake of fire suffered a 1st death and dies a 2nd time. I am finding many people are confused by the term 2nd. The term second death is not denoting an order but a type. The first type of death is the one that a person can be recovered from. The majority of mankind has suffered this type of death. Jesus suffered this kind of death once for all mankind.

A person or being that suffers the second type of death is unrecoverable. Like a wooden chair thrown into a fire. There is no way to recover something that been burned to ashes. Satan, the first type of death, wicked people, false religions, and human ran governments will be removed forever, never to return. There is no mention of the second type of death being removed in the Bible.

The bible simply states that death will be no more. It does not add the condition 'first' or 'second'.

Death is no more. Death is defeated.

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

The passage does not state 'no more first death'. Just simply, no more death.


Why do you say that death will continue?


Peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Peace to you,

No, Gehenna is a literal valley used in a figurative sense. The lake of fire is a symbolic representation of the second death. Eternal destruction. No hope for resurrection. Satan, his demons and followers, death and hell (the grave) are figuratively thrown there to symbolize their eternal destruction. No more Satan, no more sin, no more death, no more grave.

I'd like to interject here that 2nd death does mean that a person that goes into the lake of fire suffered a 1st death and dies a 2nd time. I am finding many people are confused by the term 2nd. The term second death is not denoting an order but a type. The first type of death is the one that a person can be recovered from. The majority of mankind has suffered this type of death. Jesus suffered this kind of death once for all mankind.

A person or being that suffers the second type of death is unrecoverable. Like a wooden chair thrown into a fire. There is no way to recover something that been burned to ashes. Satan, the first type of death, wicked people, false religions, and human ran governments will be removed forever, never to return. There is no mention of the second type of death being removed in the Bible.

The bible simply states that death will be no more. It does not add the condition 'first' or 'second'.

Death is no more. Death is defeated.

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

The passage does not state 'no more first death'. Just simply, no more death.


Why do you say that death will continue?


Peace to you.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

If true death is final, then our first death is not death at all. It does not meet the definition of death. That is, it is not final or permanent. As doctors and medical technicians "restore life" to someone after their heart has stopped for twenty minutes, God is going to restore the physical life of nonbelievers many years after their first "death" at the second resurrection. In many cases after having been "dead" for thousands of years. Therefore, their first death is not actually a death because it is not final and permanent. They will live again. It is final to us here on the earth. That is, man cannot restore another man's life after his first death, only God can.

Consequently, death in the scriptures is typically described as sleep, slumber, or rest. Rest in peace.

Thus, Jesus did not lie when He stated that Lazarus' stinking body which had been lying in the grave for four days was only sleeping:

Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. (John 11:39)

When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death:

Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14)

In neither case, when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep nor when He said Lazarus was dead, did He lie. Both statements are true! One was from God's point of view and the other was from man's point of view. From God's perspective there is one true death, the second death.

So the only true death is the second death, and that is what will be no more.

When the last human is either granted everlasting lspiritual bodied life or cast into the lake of fire and suffers his or her second death, there are no more living humans.

Thus death is abolished because there is no one left who can die. So death and hell (the grave) are both defeated!

[1213]

There is no fire that burns forever which is one way of knowing it's symbolic. That and the fact that Satan and his demons are angels. Spirit creatures. Literal fire doesn't have any effect on them. Remember the angel in the burning bush.

I don't know was the bush fire literal fire, or some other kind of fire. But, I know Bible tells that for example Satan is thrown to the lake of fire and that fire burns forever. I don't think Bible speaks it symbolically. But, it is probably not earthly fire.