#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

What would you call what is happening when someone is tortured for eternity?

That scripture says “to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him”. I don’t see eternity in that, so are you referring to some other scripture?

[Wootah]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

What would you call what is happening when someone is tortured for eternity?

That scripture says “to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him”. I don’t see eternity in that, so are you referring to some other scripture?

How much is due to God? Can you pay for your sins against God?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

It could be said to be, in a very general sense, "a judgment of hell". But in its specifics, it does not "support traditional doctrine".

In what way, or ways?

When looking at a verse, it is often helpful to scrutinise one or more key words by taking into account the Greek meaning in order to apply it accordingly.

In this case, of the word translated as "torturers".

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 930 basanistḗs (from 928 /basanízō) – a guard in a prison "whose function was to torture prisoners as a phase of judicial examination – prison guard, torturer" (L & N, 1, 37.126).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 930: βασανιστής

βασανιστής, βασανιστου, ὁ (βασανίζω), one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack, an inquisitor, torturer, ((Antiphon, others); Demosthenes, p. 978, 11; Philo in Flacc. § 11 end; (de concupisc. § 1; quod omn. prob. book 16; Plutarch, an vitios. ad infel. suff. § 2)); used in Matthew 18:34 of a jailer (δεσμοφύλαξ basanistais, basanistaîs.)

What information are we given by these two sources about "the torturers", what their function was for, and how long it would need to last?

"The torturers" were: "a prison guard or jailer whose function was to torture prisoners by the use of the rack, as a phase of judicial examination".

Each torturer was thus "an inquisitor, one who elicits the truth".

How does this support, or not support, "traditional doctrine" of "the judgment of hell"?

[

Good points. The "torturers" simply kept their prisoners from being able to go about their business, bound to one narrow spot, if you will. That would be torture for anyone....just not being able to function. That is how the "torment" of the Devil and his minions is to be understood. They are not physically tortured in flames forever, but are made to be devoid of any action---obliterated. They will not be able to carry on their evil business because they will be annihilated forever.

Thanks.

Not according to the two sources I posted, onewithhim.

What Jesus cited was a form of physical torture as a phase in judicial examination by an inquisitor,, in which the rack was employed to elicit the truth sought.

Jesus would have known this, and chose to use it in his parabolic teaching.

What kind of non-physically induced torment do you see God employing at the coming judicial examination(The Final Judgment)?

Jesus said nothing in this passage, and intended nothing, regarding the coming treatment or fate of the devil.

Rather, he was talking about a "wicked servant" who was very hard-hearted toward his fellow servant and brother.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

It could be said to be, in a very general sense, "a judgment of hell". But in its specifics, it does not "support traditional doctrine".

In what way, or ways?

When looking at a verse, it is often helpful to scrutinise one or more key words by taking into account the Greek meaning in order to apply it accordingly.

In this case, of the word translated as "torturers".

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 930 basanistḗs (from 928 /basanízō) – a guard in a prison "whose function was to torture prisoners as a phase of judicial examination – prison guard, torturer" (L & N, 1, 37.126).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 930: βασανιστής

βασανιστής, βασανιστου, ὁ (βασανίζω), one who elicits the truth by the use of the rack, an inquisitor, torturer, ((Antiphon, others); Demosthenes, p. 978, 11; Philo in Flacc. § 11 end; (de concupisc. § 1; quod omn. prob. book 16; Plutarch, an vitios. ad infel. suff. § 2)); used in Matthew 18:34 of a jailer (δεσμοφύλαξ basanistais, basanistaîs.)

What information are we given by these two sources about "the torturers", what their function was for, and how long it would need to last?

"The torturers" were: "a prison guard or jailer whose function was to torture prisoners by the use of the rack, as a phase of judicial examination".

Each torturer was thus "an inquisitor, one who elicits the truth".

How does this support, or not support, "traditional doctrine" of "the judgment of hell"?

[

Good points. The "torturers" simply kept their prisoners from being able to go about their business, bound to one narrow spot, if you will. That would be torture for anyone....just not being able to function. That is how the "torment" of the Devil and his minions is to be understood. They are not physically tortured in flames forever, but are made to be devoid of any action---obliterated. They will not be able to carry on their evil business because they will be annihilated forever.

Thanks.

Not according to the two sources I posted, onewithhim.

What Jesus cited was a form of physical torture as a phase in judicial examination by an inquisitor,, in which the rack was employed to elicit the truth sought.

Jesus would have known this, and chose to use it in his parabolic teaching.

What kind of non-physically induced torment do you see God employing at the coming judicial examination(The Final Judgment)?

I explained this. The Devil will be prevented from moving, essentially, and this would be a "torment" similar to a jailer's "torment" of restricting a prisoner's movements. And wouldn't the Devil be restricted---unable to do anything---if he was dead? That is the sense of "torment" here. He is said to be tormented in the lake of fire forever, right? The lake of fire is SYMBOLIC of complete destruction. So you can get the meaning quite clearly when you accept that.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

7 and/or 10

[Tcg]

I explained this. The Devil will be prevented from moving, essentially, and this would be a "torment" similar to a jailer's "torment" of restricting a prisoner's movements. And wouldn't the Devil be restricted---unable to do anything---if he was dead? That is the sense of "torment" here.

You may have explained it, but it doesn't add up. Torment is severe physical or mental suffering. If the devil were dead, he'd not feel any kind of suffering, or anything else for that matter.


Tcg

[Tcg]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

What would you call what is happening when someone is tortured for eternity?

That scripture says “to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him”. I don’t see eternity in that, so are you referring to some other scripture?

How much is due to God? Can you pay for your sins against God?

If there were no possibility of paying the debt, the author would have stopped at, "to the torturers." Instead we have a clear time limit on the torture, "until he should pay all that was due to him." This statement would be absurd if there were no possibility of payment. If there were none, the author wouldn't have mentioned it.


Tcg

[onewithhim]

I explained this. The Devil will be prevented from moving, essentially, and this would be a "torment" similar to a jailer's "torment" of restricting a prisoner's movements. And wouldn't the Devil be restricted---unable to do anything---if he was dead? That is the sense of "torment" here.

You may have explained it, but it doesn't add up. Torment is severe physical or mental suffering. If the devil were dead, he'd not feel any kind of suffering, or anything else for that matter.


Tcg

The definition here of "torment" from the Greek word for "jailed" is simply a cessation of a person's freedom to do whatever he wants, whether alive or dead. When he is dead, he is certainly stopped from doing whatever he pleases.

You entirely miss the point as well that the lake of fire, where the Devil is "tormented," is SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration. (If you want to take that literally, explain how "hell" or, the grave, and "death" can be thrown or be aware of being tormented. Revelation 20: particularly verses 13 and 14.)

[Tcg]

I explained this. The Devil will be prevented from moving, essentially, and this would be a "torment" similar to a jailer's "torment" of restricting a prisoner's movements. And wouldn't the Devil be restricted---unable to do anything---if he was dead? That is the sense of "torment" here.

You may have explained it, but it doesn't add up. Torment is severe physical or mental suffering. If the devil were dead, he'd not feel any kind of suffering, or anything else for that matter.


Tcg

The definition here of "torment" from the Greek word for "jailed" is simply a cessation of a person's freedom to do whatever he wants, whether alive or dead. When he is dead, he is certainly stopped from doing whatever he pleases.

The scholars who translated this passage choose the word "torment" for a reason. I trust their opinion over yours. They choose it because the English word "torment" best represents the Greek. My objection stands.

You entirely miss the point as well that the lake of fire, where the Devil is "tormented," is SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration. (If you want to take that literally, explain how "hell" or, the grave, and "death" can be thrown or be aware of being tormented. Revelation 20: particularly verses 13 and 14.)

A simple review of my post will reveal the fact that I said nothing about the lake of fire. Additionally, using all caps to spell the word "SYMBOLIC" doesn't support the assertion that it is indeed symbolic.


Tcg

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #12]

You have no comment on my post?

Which post is that?


.

7 and/or 10

Sure. One question:

Hades, or, "hell" is actually mankind's grave, where a body is lain after death, with no consciousness.

What is your evidence for this? (Bible verse(s) of course.)




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