Do we choose God or does God choose us?
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Do we choose God or does God choose us?
Post #21.
Confused, Read Gospel of John 3:1-21, all 21 verses.
It's an exchange between Jesus and a member of the Jewish hierarchy, a trained scholar. This is self explanatory.
Biker[/quote][/quote]
Ok, I read the gospel you recommended. I understand what it says. Here is where my problem lies: You believe in God/Heaven right? So you believe in Lucifer/Condemnation (hell if you wish). Now according to christian doctrine there has been this war between good and evil, God and Lucifer, since time began for man. This war for souls per se. God wants us to choose him. Lucifer, while he doesn't so much want us to choose him, wants us to deny God. I don't know how many of my posts you have read, but I did what John 3:1-21 suggests. I did with an open heart and clear conscience. What has happened over the past 3 years since then has left me beaten up. Your Gospel says "whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God". Now, what happens when we still don't see that light. What happens when what we practice as what we think is truth (ie. moral/ethical rights) isn't so clear cut as dark and light? What happens when we put all our faith into that basket (and please don't insult me by saying I didn't really give it my all) and that light still doesn't shine? What happens when we must make decisions every day that are influenced by necessity that expressly go against what some scriptures say. The action may not be seen as expressly immoral or unethical in todays society, but by gospels standards, it is. In medicine, I must make some choices that can't be influenced by religion. These actions easily go against scripture many times. So tell me, who is influencing my path right now? Lucifer or God. Is it a path of Light or Dark? Is it Sin or Salvation. If you ever wonder why so many people are confused it is usually because the bible doesn't address reality as we know it to exist in todays world. We get lost because circumstances have changed. Now in todays society, we are told we can choose God, yet we can't because we must do things against his scripture on a daily basis. We confess these sins, but are not true in our confession, because though we are sincere in asking for forgivness and are repentant, we know that in the morning, we are going to repeat the same sins over and over again. Therefore we aren't truly repentant.
This all being said:: How can we choose? If God gave us free will to choose, then he needs to update his scripture to reflect todays world so that we can use free will to make that "informed" choice. Since this isn't going to happen, obviously, how do we know that the path we are on is the path god wants us to follow and not lucifer given the cloudy line separating good and evil in todays world?
So my question is, how do we choose god? I mean, you say God pursues us, and we must then pursue him in return. I wasn't raised with any religious background. I didn't even start my search into this concept until my mid to late 20's. With that knowledge, how do I know how to pursue him? There are so many religions with so many contradictory beliefs amongst them. Which is right. How do you know what to start with? You say God pursues us and me must return. How do I identify this pursuit. I mean how can I acknowledge it if I don't know what it is. If he chooses, shouldn't it be clear???? Keep in mind, I am neither theist or atheist. I have an open mind so it isn't that I am ignoring his attempts to gain my attention.[/quote]Above mentioned bible says God pursues us and we must pursue him in return,As He rewards those who do pursue Him from a pure heart
and motive. He chooses first, we respond,a relationship ensues.
Biker
Confused, Read Gospel of John 3:1-21, all 21 verses.
It's an exchange between Jesus and a member of the Jewish hierarchy, a trained scholar. This is self explanatory.
Biker[/quote][/quote]
Ok, I read the gospel you recommended. I understand what it says. Here is where my problem lies: You believe in God/Heaven right? So you believe in Lucifer/Condemnation (hell if you wish). Now according to christian doctrine there has been this war between good and evil, God and Lucifer, since time began for man. This war for souls per se. God wants us to choose him. Lucifer, while he doesn't so much want us to choose him, wants us to deny God. I don't know how many of my posts you have read, but I did what John 3:1-21 suggests. I did with an open heart and clear conscience. What has happened over the past 3 years since then has left me beaten up. Your Gospel says "whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God". Now, what happens when we still don't see that light. What happens when what we practice as what we think is truth (ie. moral/ethical rights) isn't so clear cut as dark and light? What happens when we put all our faith into that basket (and please don't insult me by saying I didn't really give it my all) and that light still doesn't shine? What happens when we must make decisions every day that are influenced by necessity that expressly go against what some scriptures say. The action may not be seen as expressly immoral or unethical in todays society, but by gospels standards, it is. In medicine, I must make some choices that can't be influenced by religion. These actions easily go against scripture many times. So tell me, who is influencing my path right now? Lucifer or God. Is it a path of Light or Dark? Is it Sin or Salvation. If you ever wonder why so many people are confused it is usually because the bible doesn't address reality as we know it to exist in todays world. We get lost because circumstances have changed. Now in todays society, we are told we can choose God, yet we can't because we must do things against his scripture on a daily basis. We confess these sins, but are not true in our confession, because though we are sincere in asking for forgivness and are repentant, we know that in the morning, we are going to repeat the same sins over and over again. Therefore we aren't truly repentant.
This all being said:: How can we choose? If God gave us free will to choose, then he needs to update his scripture to reflect todays world so that we can use free will to make that "informed" choice. Since this isn't going to happen, obviously, how do we know that the path we are on is the path god wants us to follow and not lucifer given the cloudy line separating good and evil in todays world?
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
-
Biker
Re: Do we choose God or does God choose us?
Post #22Confused, Read Gospel of John 3:1-21, all 21 verses.Confused wrote:.So my question is, how do we choose god? I mean, you say God pursues us, and we must then pursue him in return. I wasn't raised with any religious background. I didn't even start my search into this concept until my mid to late 20's. With that knowledge, how do I know how to pursue him? There are so many religions with so many contradictory beliefs amongst them. Which is right. How do you know what to start with? You say God pursues us and me must return. How do I identify this pursuit. I mean how can I acknowledge it if I don't know what it is. If he chooses, shouldn't it be clear???? Keep in mind, I am neither theist or atheist. I have an open mind so it isn't that I am ignoring his attempts to gain my attention.Above mentioned bible says God pursues us and we must pursue him in return,As He rewards those who do pursue Him from a pure heart
and motive. He chooses first, we respond,a relationship ensues.
Biker
It's an exchange between Jesus and a member of the Jewish hierarchy, a trained scholar. This is self explanatory.
Biker[/quote][/quote]
Ok, I read the gospel you recommended. I understand what it says. Here is where my problem lies: You believe in God/Heaven right? So you believe in Lucifer/Condemnation (hell if you wish). Now according to christian doctrine there has been this war between good and evil, God and Lucifer, since time began for man. This war for souls per se. God wants us to choose him. Lucifer, while he doesn't so much want us to choose him, wants us to deny God. I don't know how many of my posts you have read, but I did what John 3:1-21 suggests. I did with an open heart and clear conscience. What has happened over the past 3 years since then has left me beaten up. Your Gospel says "whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God". Now, what happens when we still don't see that light. What happens when what we practice as what we think is truth (ie. moral/ethical rights) isn't so clear cut as dark and light? What happens when we put all our faith into that basket (and please don't insult me by saying I didn't really give it my all) and that light still doesn't shine? What happens when we must make decisions every day that are influenced by necessity that expressly go against what some scriptures say. The action may not be seen as expressly immoral or unethical in todays society, but by gospels standards, it is. In medicine, I must make some choices that can't be influenced by religion. These actions easily go against scripture many times. So tell me, who is influencing my path right now? Lucifer or God. Is it a path of Light or Dark? Is it Sin or Salvation. If you ever wonder why so many people are confused it is usually because the bible doesn't address reality as we know it to exist in todays world. We get lost because circumstances have changed. Now in todays society, we are told we can choose God, yet we can't because we must do things against his scripture on a daily basis. We confess these sins, but are not true in our confession, because though we are sincere in asking for forgivness and are repentant, we know that in the morning, we are going to repeat the same sins over and over again. Therefore we aren't truly repentant.
This all being said:: How can we choose? If God gave us free will to choose, then he needs to update his scripture to reflect todays world so that we can use free will to make that "informed" choice. Since this isn't going to happen, obviously, how do we know that the path we are on is the path god wants us to follow and not lucifer given the cloudy line separating good and evil in todays world?[/quote]
WOW,I just sent you to the corner for a gallon of milk,not into the dark continent looking for the Holy Grail!Slow down girl your gonna blow a gasket.Relaxxxxx take a deep breath and read Romans 10:8-13.Study it real hard,its self explanatory just like John 3:1-21 was!And call me in the mourning.
Dr. Biker with a DB
Re: Do we choose God or does God choose us?
Post #23[/quote]WOW,I just sent you to the corner for a gallon of milk,not into the dark continent looking for the Holy Grail!Slow down girl your gonna blow a gasket.Relaxxxxx take a deep breath and read Romans 10:8-13.Study it real hard,its self explanatory just like John 3:1-21 was!And call me in the mourning.
Dr. Biker with a DB
LOL. I do tend to go to the extremes. I will re-read it and let it sink in overnight before I respond.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
Post #24
Do we choose God or God choose us? Well, here are my thoughts …
God choose everyone to believe in Him. The proof? The answer is on the cross. A FUNDAMENTAL TEACHING OF CHRIST …. Christ died for ALL to be saved. God is permanent. He is there always for everyone. But not everyone seek Him. We take the first step to seek God and then only, He is found. It is called – choice, free will.
How to take the first step? So many religions, philosophies, contradicting each other. In which of these is God? You cannot find God this way. You must seek Him with your whole heart, “O God, whoever you are, make yourself known to me.” I guarantee you, He will reveal Himself to you b/c He died for you. This is called love.
Why is it choice, free will. When God shows you who He is, you choose Him or you can walk away or you respond and then later on, you fall out. Is this free will or not? The cross tells me that God is there always for me and it is up to me to cleave to Him and not let go b/c if I do, I fall, satan steps in and takes my soul. Why should I allow satan to do this to me? Again, it requires decision-making … choice.
Thus, a free will choice is made by (1) seeking God and (2) remain and grow in faith till death.
So, I choose God. God choose everyone. No one is left out. Many fall away b/c of lack of knowledge in Him. This is also choice. You can walk away anytime. No force. However, you know the consequences, the balance between heaven and hell, God or satan.
Some argue that if we don’t worship God, we will be sent to hell. So, we are ‘forced’ to worship. These kind of worshippers will definitely fall away b/c they don’t seek God with all their heart. If they do, they will VALUE Him and LOVE Him. They equip themselves with knowledge of Him through His Word which is inerrant and all truth. They get to know Him not just through His Word, but through a personal relationship that heathens find unbelievable.
God choose everyone to believe in Him. The proof? The answer is on the cross. A FUNDAMENTAL TEACHING OF CHRIST …. Christ died for ALL to be saved. God is permanent. He is there always for everyone. But not everyone seek Him. We take the first step to seek God and then only, He is found. It is called – choice, free will.
How to take the first step? So many religions, philosophies, contradicting each other. In which of these is God? You cannot find God this way. You must seek Him with your whole heart, “O God, whoever you are, make yourself known to me.” I guarantee you, He will reveal Himself to you b/c He died for you. This is called love.
Why is it choice, free will. When God shows you who He is, you choose Him or you can walk away or you respond and then later on, you fall out. Is this free will or not? The cross tells me that God is there always for me and it is up to me to cleave to Him and not let go b/c if I do, I fall, satan steps in and takes my soul. Why should I allow satan to do this to me? Again, it requires decision-making … choice.
Thus, a free will choice is made by (1) seeking God and (2) remain and grow in faith till death.
So, I choose God. God choose everyone. No one is left out. Many fall away b/c of lack of knowledge in Him. This is also choice. You can walk away anytime. No force. However, you know the consequences, the balance between heaven and hell, God or satan.
Some argue that if we don’t worship God, we will be sent to hell. So, we are ‘forced’ to worship. These kind of worshippers will definitely fall away b/c they don’t seek God with all their heart. If they do, they will VALUE Him and LOVE Him. They equip themselves with knowledge of Him through His Word which is inerrant and all truth. They get to know Him not just through His Word, but through a personal relationship that heathens find unbelievable.
Post #25
I know you haven't read a lot of my posts, But I have done what you suggested. Still confused. I am happy you have found this elusive peace. Why is it that no christian out there can do anything say "I found him". You all say this his how, yet when some of us try it your way, and we are pure of heart (at least we think we are), we find nothing. They you judge us for failing to find this relationship. You say we used free will to choose against god and so we have chosen a life without him. Well, I am sorry, but I think that if god exists, he chooses and didn't choose me.topaz wrote:Do we choose God or God choose us? Well, here are my thoughts …
God choose everyone to believe in Him. The proof? The answer is on the cross. A FUNDAMENTAL TEACHING OF CHRIST …. Christ died for ALL to be saved. God is permanent. He is there always for everyone. But not everyone seek Him. We take the first step to seek God and then only, He is found. It is called – choice, free will.
How to take the first step? So many religions, philosophies, contradicting each other. In which of these is God? You cannot find God this way. You must seek Him with your whole heart, “O God, whoever you are, make yourself known to me.” I guarantee you, He will reveal Himself to you b/c He died for you. This is called love.
Why is it choice, free will. When God shows you who He is, you choose Him or you can walk away or you respond and then later on, you fall out. Is this free will or not? The cross tells me that God is there always for me and it is up to me to cleave to Him and not let go b/c if I do, I fall, satan steps in and takes my soul. Why should I allow satan to do this to me? Again, it requires decision-making … choice.
Thus, a free will choice is made by (1) seeking God and (2) remain and grow in faith till death.
So, I choose God. God choose everyone. No one is left out. Many fall away b/c of lack of knowledge in Him. This is also choice. You can walk away anytime. No force. However, you know the consequences, the balance between heaven and hell, God or satan.
Some argue that if we don’t worship God, we will be sent to hell. So, we are ‘forced’ to worship. These kind of worshippers will definitely fall away b/c they don’t seek God with all their heart. If they do, they will VALUE Him and LOVE Him. They equip themselves with knowledge of Him through His Word which is inerrant and all truth. They get to know Him not just through His Word, but through a personal relationship that heathens find unbelievable.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.
-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.
-Harvey Fierstein
-
Biker
Post #26
Hi Confused, I am praying for you to find what it is you are looking for, and help for you and your family.I hear you.Don't take this as hoaky, as it is said lightly very often, but I really do feel your hurt.Confused wrote:I know you haven't read a lot of my posts, But I have done what you suggested. Still confused. I am happy you have found this elusive peace. Why is it that no christian out there can do anything say "I found him". You all say this his how, yet when some of us try it your way, and we are pure of heart (at least we think we are), we find nothing. They you judge us for failing to find this relationship. You say we used free will to choose against god and so we have chosen a life without him. Well, I am sorry, but I think that if god exists, he chooses and didn't choose me.topaz wrote:Do we choose God or God choose us? Well, here are my thoughts …
God choose everyone to believe in Him. The proof? The answer is on the cross. A FUNDAMENTAL TEACHING OF CHRIST …. Christ died for ALL to be saved. God is permanent. He is there always for everyone. But not everyone seek Him. We take the first step to seek God and then only, He is found. It is called – choice, free will.
How to take the first step? So many religions, philosophies, contradicting each other. In which of these is God? You cannot find God this way. You must seek Him with your whole heart, “O God, whoever you are, make yourself known to me.” I guarantee you, He will reveal Himself to you b/c He died for you. This is called love.
Why is it choice, free will. When God shows you who He is, you choose Him or you can walk away or you respond and then later on, you fall out. Is this free will or not? The cross tells me that God is there always for me and it is up to me to cleave to Him and not let go b/c if I do, I fall, satan steps in and takes my soul. Why should I allow satan to do this to me? Again, it requires decision-making … choice.
Thus, a free will choice is made by (1) seeking God and (2) remain and grow in faith till death.
So, I choose God. God choose everyone. No one is left out. Many fall away b/c of lack of knowledge in Him. This is also choice. You can walk away anytime. No force. However, you know the consequences, the balance between heaven and hell, God or satan.
Some argue that if we don’t worship God, we will be sent to hell. So, we are ‘forced’ to worship. These kind of worshippers will definitely fall away b/c they don’t seek God with all their heart. If they do, they will VALUE Him and LOVE Him. They equip themselves with knowledge of Him through His Word which is inerrant and all truth. They get to know Him not just through His Word, but through a personal relationship that heathens find unbelievable.
Biker
Re: dead
Post #27You know you belong to God when you bear the Seal of God ie. the Holy Spirit.bernee51 wrote: So do you know if you are one of the chosen? if so, how so?
We are not 'chosen' in my u/standing. We make a free will choice to worship God through His Son, our beloved Saviour, Jesus Christ. When we deny Christ, God denies us.bernee51 wrote: What about me? Do you know if I am one of god's chosen?
Godhead refers to the Trinity = God + Son + Holy Spirit.bernee51 wrote: What is the 'godhead'?
God is never absent in our lives. We deny Him and put Him out of our minds and hearts. This is no blessing. If you compare God with satan, you will see how wonderful God is while how wicked satan is. Having never seen the ugly, how can anyone appreciate beauty? That is how God -- satan is, to me. God is beauty after seeing satan in his wickedness w/o bounds. What have we done to satan that makes him tempt us into sin and to hell?bernee51 wrote:God has blessed me with his absence.Truth101 wrote: God bless, Dave
God bless me with Your presence always. Thank you.
Re: dead
Post #28How does this "Holy Spirit" manifest in me as an individual?topaz wrote:You know you belong to God when you bear the Seal of God ie. the Holy Spirit.bernee51 wrote: So do you know if you are one of the chosen? if so, how so?
bernee51 wrote: What about me? Do you know if I am one of god's chosen?
Ah...so it is not my fault that god is not in my life...god has denied his existence in me as I do not believe that Jesus is who he is claimed (by man) to be.topaz wrote: We are not 'chosen' in my u/standing. We make a free will choice to worship God through His Son, our beloved Saviour, Jesus Christ. When we deny Christ, God denies us.
bernee51 wrote: What is the 'godhead'?
I have a different view. Look inside for the godhead.topaz wrote: Godhead refers to the Trinity = God + Son + Holy Spirit.
Or perhaps it is an earlier trinity - brahma (the creator), vishnu (the sustainer) and shiva (the 'destroyer')
What is ugly to you may be of unsurpassed beauty to me. It is not an absolute.topaz wrote: . Having never seen the ugly, how can anyone appreciate beauty?
Neither your god nor your satan exist in my version of 'reality'topaz wrote: God is beauty after seeing satan in his wickedness w/o bounds. What have we done to satan that makes him tempt us into sin and to hell?
The ultimate aim though, in approaching the 'godhead' is to transcend the duality.
Last edited by bernee51 on Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
William James quoting Dr. Hodgson
"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj
Post #29
Hello Confused
I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I do know after reading you that there is pain in your life. I am surprised that after 3 years [correct me if I am wrong] in christianity you have not found the light. There are many false christs in christendom. Could it be that you’re worshipping a false christ?
Christ offers a relationship not just religion. In this relationship, we are urged to know Him through His Word … to take Him at His Word. We all go through the vicissitudes of life and its bearable when Christ is with us, know what I mean. Christ is with anyone who seeks Him. I am confused that He does not seem to be with you. If you read the kjv or niv, Christ is there. He will reach out to you, irregardless of your denom. He will lead you to the truth and the truth will set you free.
You mention that in daily living, you have no choice but to commit sin. I suggest you bring this dilemma to Christ and He will certainly lead you into a good path.
May God bless you by reaching out to you and may He keep you in Him to the end. The following verse helps me whenever I am down. I simply cleave on to God and not let go.
De 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.
I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I do know after reading you that there is pain in your life. I am surprised that after 3 years [correct me if I am wrong] in christianity you have not found the light. There are many false christs in christendom. Could it be that you’re worshipping a false christ?
Christ offers a relationship not just religion. In this relationship, we are urged to know Him through His Word … to take Him at His Word. We all go through the vicissitudes of life and its bearable when Christ is with us, know what I mean. Christ is with anyone who seeks Him. I am confused that He does not seem to be with you. If you read the kjv or niv, Christ is there. He will reach out to you, irregardless of your denom. He will lead you to the truth and the truth will set you free.
You mention that in daily living, you have no choice but to commit sin. I suggest you bring this dilemma to Christ and He will certainly lead you into a good path.
May God bless you by reaching out to you and may He keep you in Him to the end. The following verse helps me whenever I am down. I simply cleave on to God and not let go.
De 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.
Post #30
You can know the thoughts of God on any matter b/c He transmits it to us mentally.bernee51 wrote: How does this "Holy Spirit" manifest in me as an individual?
bernee51 wrote: What about me? Do you know if I am one of god's chosen?
topaz wrote: We are not 'chosen' in my u/standing. We make a free will choice to worship God through His Son, our beloved Saviour, Jesus Christ. When we deny Christ, God denies us.
If you read again, I believe in free will choice. Therefore, our destiny is in our hands. If God is not in your life, it is b/c you choose not to have Him there through unbelief. Choice, isn’t it?bernee51 wrote: Ah...so it is not my fault that god is not in my life...god has denied his existence in me as I do not believe that Jesus is who he is claimed (by man) to be. ?
bernee51 wrote: What is the 'godhead'?
topaz wrote: Godhead refers to the Trinity = God + Son + Holy Spirit.
One chooses to be teachable or unteachable.bernee51 wrote: I have a different view. Look inside for the godhead.
Or perhaps it is an earlier trinity - brahma (the creator), vishnu (the sustainer) and shiva (the 'destroyer')
I disagree. I am talking about God vs satan. There is no beauty in a dark, dead soul that is wicked to the extreme.bernee51 wrote: What is ugly to you may be of unsurpassed beauty to me. It is not an absolute.
Reality is fact. Fact is immutable, cannot be changed. You can choose to believe what you want but you cannot change the factual truth about the existence of God vs satan and the trinity. You make your choice and you choose to be blessed / cursed through the choices you make. You are the master of your own destiny. So don’t blame God or anyone else but ourselves when our life turns upside down.bernee51 wrote: Neither your god nor your satan exist in my version of 'reality'
