My Lord and my God - Shema Trinity

[Wootah]

Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-28.htm

What did he mean to claim about Jesus?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 19 by Wootah]

Are you suggesting that all exclamations, even truthful ones, are "blasphemous"? Jesus is indeed Thomas God. What he is not is Thomas ALMIGHTY God, YHWH (Jehovah).



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



All trinity so-called proof text [Index]DEBUNKED
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 594#936594

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post #21 by JehovahsWitness above



DID THE APOSTLE THOMAS DECLARE JESUS TO BE GOD?

ANSWER No, he did not . Thomas is not recorded as saying the words "Jesus is God." The only text we have on the matter has him exclaim* "My Lord and My God". My (being a possessive adjective) means his words convey the idea: You are God to ME, you are Lord to ME. Thomas said no more and no less.

* For more on the evidence of it being an exclamation please follow LINK to # above (by tigger2)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 066#979066

In the original language the word GOD (theos) /(Hebrew El) simply means powerful one, and is a recognition of that which we see as being more powerful/superior to ourselves. As such it was neither misplaced nor blasphemous for Thomas to make such a exclamation.

Of course one can presume/interpret/interject/imply, impose or suppose... as many ideas as one wishes, but sticking to the "plain reading" Thomas made not comment on Jesus relative position to Almighty God* the Father, YHWH. He made no statement about Jesus' supremacy, he did not call Jesus "The One True God", or YHWH. He made no statement about Jesus being the established object of worshipful adoration, nor indeed of who Christians in general or should or should not worship. All such statements were absent.

* NOTE The combination of Shaddai (almighty) with God (El) only appears 7 times in scripture and is always (without exception) applied uniquely to YHWH (Jehovah)[/list]

CONCLUSION We can conclude that Thomas believed (rightly so) that Jesus was more powerful than he (Thomas) was. Imposing that his exclamation meant he believed Jesus equal in power, influence and authority to Almighty God, YHWH (Jehovah), or part of a so called "trinity", is taking a huge liberty with the text to say the very least.

JW




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GOD, JESUS and ...THE TRINITY

[marco]

The only text we have on the matter has him exclaim* "My Lord and My God". My (being a possessive adjective) means his words convey the idea: You are God to ME, you are Lord to ME. Thomas said no more and no less.

We are clutching at straws if we have to identify the part of speech that "my" is, in the utterly trite expression "My Lord."


If indeed Thomas identified Jesus as his God, and Jesus, who was quick to pick someone up for simply calling him "good" made no objection, then there is a strong case for saying Thomas was identifying Christ as his God, as the man actually said.

Perhaps a better way out of jail is to suppose that Thomas in surprise expressed "My Lord" and then in further surprise added "My God..... " with the thought "it is really true" suppressed.

[Eloi]

[Replying to marco]

There is not any problem on considering Thomas calling Jesus the way he did, since happened frequently in antiquity that angels in human form were called as if they were Jehovah, and they were not. God is not visible to humans.

Furthermore, it is impossible that Thomas would have thought that Jesus is God if shortly before this encounter with the risen Jesus, Jesus himself had sent this message to his disciples, whom he calls as "brothers":

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’�

FURTHERMORE: the Shema is not talking only about a God that is ONE, but about the only one by His own NAME: Jehovah. The Shema can NOT be talking about Jesus, since Jesus is Jehovah's son.

[Elijah John]

Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-28.htm

What did he mean to claim about Jesus?

Let's assume he was implying that Jesus was God. That adds up to two persons making up the Godhead, not three. It's simply math, not complex theology. Shema duality at best.


Tcg

Or a simple exclamation of amazement, as in the modern "OMG". Thomas praising the Father for doing something amazing in raising Jesus. Doubtful he was praising Jesus for raising himself. Only the Evangelist "John" suggests Jesus raised himself. The author of Luke-Acts indicated that it was the Father who did the raising.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 15 by tigger2]

So blasphemy is one explanation that is possible.

Why would it be blasphemy to utter a praise of amazement at what the Father had done?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Elijah John]

99 times out of 100 the blurting out of God's name is swearing, as in Jesus H Christ or God damn it.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to Elijah John]

99 times out of 100 the blurting out of God's name is swearing, as in Jesus H Christ or God damn it.

Not in this case, and probably not in many others when people say "Oh my God". OMG is nothing like the other things you wrote as examples. It's different. Especially when Thomas said it, most likely as an exclamation of praise to the Father in doing something wonderous in raising Jesus from the dead.

That Thomas said this with Jesus present does not mean that Thomas thought that Jesus is God. Or even that the resurrection proved that Jesus is God. Even if Jesus was raised, how would that prove that Jesus is God?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Elijah John]

99 times out of 100 the blurting out of God's name is swearing, as in Jesus H Christ or God damn it.

Not in this case, and probably not in many others when people say "Oh my God". OMG is nothing like the other things you wrote as examples. It's different. Especially when Thomas said it, most likely as an exclamation of praise to the Father in doing something wonderous in raising Jesus from the dead.

That Thomas said this with Jesus present does not mean that Thomas thought that Jesus is God. Or even that the resurrection proved that Jesus is God. Even if Jesus was raised, how would that prove that Jesus is God?

Of course not in this case. In this case he knew what he was saying.

Do you really think he uttered: 'the Lord of me the God of me' and meant
How amazing that God that raised the man Jesus from the dead.

What does occams razor suggest you believe?

[tam]

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]


Peace to you!




Even though some are suggesting it makes little sense, with the latter part of his exclamation "my God", Thomas could have been praising both Christ (as my Lord) and ALSO God (as my God). I once made that very exclamation and I was praising both Christ (my Lord) and ALSO God (my God). I did not plan it; it just came out naturally and from the heart. As soon as I did this though, I remembered Thomas and his exclamation. Perhaps Thomas did the same.



If Thomas was indeed referencing Christ as both "my Lord and my God", it does not mean he meant it in the sense that Christ is God Most High, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is Jah. (Psalm 68:4). But rather in the same sense as the following:

“Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came— and the Scripture cannot be broken— then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?" John 10:34-36


Because if Satan is the 'god of this world' (2 Corinth 4:4)... then what about the actual Son of God, Jaheshua, the Chosen One of Jah? The One to whom the Father gave all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18)? The One to whom the Father gave authority over all of His belongings (including those who belonged to God first)?


I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours; You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they know that everything You have given Me comes from You. John 17:6,7





Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy