Incorrect belief.

[postroad]

Some would say not believing in Jesus is an incorrect belief leading to damnation. But what about beliefs based on incorrect doctrines. Do they need to be repented from as a sin leading to damnation?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 15 by myth-one.com]

Is not the second covenant, like the first? Consult Jeremiah. God's law written on our hearts. So we have the instructions, Torah. We just need to do them.

No, the first covenant contained at least one fault:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

The fault was not in the covenant but in man being unwilling or able to follow it.

The new covenant disolved the "handwriting of Ordinances against us". This was the curse of the law , ie punishment for breaking it. Thru Christ's blood and if we believe and follow his way, we are forgiven. Read the rest of Hebrews 8 and its right there from Jeremiah 31:34. God say He will put His law in our hearts and minds. Not a new law. The Curse of the law was written on a scroll and placed outside the Arc. This is what died with Christ. The punishment or curse of the law. God's law is said to be eternal and perfect and for all generations. Did the OT lie? Better yet, if God never changes, why would something He calls perfect and a blessing need a change?

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 20 by myth-one.com]

do you believe those Christians have committed blasphemy of God by assuming to themselves the Godly characteristic of immortality?

No.

If it was appointed, He could not avoid it.

True... but their act of premeditated murder is still on them.

They determined for themselves what they would do, and they died being mortals.

You're right. They decided for themselves what would be right and what would be wrong, instead of accepting God's moral code... BUT, They could have taken of the Tree of Life instead.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 21 by brianbbs67]

According to the Bible, while both covenants were excellent, the new covenant was better than the first:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

Additionally, the first or old testament was not "faultless." So it had at least one fault.

Is not the second covenant, like the first?

No. The difference is the requirement on mankind's part to become an heir to everlasting life under the covenants.

Under both covenants, the wages of sin is death. This does not refer to our first physical death, which is appointed to all mankind:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

It refers to what the Bible calls our "second death."

Both covenants offered mankind a pathway for extending our first short physical life to everlasting spiritual life equal unto the angels. This is our "salvation" from the second death.

The purpose of the covenants is to produce everlasting angels to replace those who rebelled against God and left their first estate (the earth):

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

In the recreation of the earth, God did not create more spiritual beings and risk being stuck with more rebels for eternity. He created a mortal being called man a little lower than the angels:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?... For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

But there was a fault in the first testament in that it had created no angelic replacements -- because all mankind ever created had sinned.

===============================================

Under the New Testament covenant, Jesus is born as a man and lives a sinless human life.

Thus He is the first and only man to qualify for everlasting life under the Old Testament covenant.

Jesus will not accept His reward of everlasting life under that covenant, but will offer it as a gift to whosoever believeth in Him as their Savior under terms of the New Testament covenant.

Works to fulfill the Law gained one salvation from death under the Old Testament covenant.

Under the New Testament, everlasting life has become a gift of God through Jesus Christ:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

While we should still strive to fulfill the Law, our only salvation now is under the grace of God.

That is, we can sin and still gain salvation.

The fault has been remedied!

That's the difference between the two covenants.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 23 by myth-one.com]

The fault wasn't in the Covenant... it clearly says the fault was in THEM. The fault of the Old Covenant was in the inability of Man to live up to the terms... but the terms don't change. What he's fixing isn't the covenant... He's providing a way whereby man can live up to the Covenant, therefore it is made on Better Promises.

Men become Angels? where do you get that?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 23 by myth-one.com]

There was and always will be only one everlasting covenant. The New Covenant was merely a new and better -- perfect -- expression of the Old. This is interesting. This is the debate between those who would hold to Covenant Theology as opposed to Dispensationalism.

Dispensational Theology -- each covenant made with man through the course of the Bible represented a new way of dealing with man by (a new dispensation of) God.

Covenant Theology -- God makes different covenants with man throughout the Bible: the Covenant of Life made with Adam and then renewed with Noah, the covenant of land and descendants with Abraham, the covenant of the Law with Moses, the covenant of a forever King with David, and the New Covenant. All these covenants were and are one, and cumulative, but finally shown and perfectly expressed in Christ. And one day it will be consummated, when Christ returns.

God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Bible is not a series of "Plan Bs". God has never had to say, "Well, that didn't work, so let's try this."

There are and will be a lot of folks in heaven who were/are dispensationalists in this life. Nobody is right about everything, because we are all imperfect.
The mere fact that one was/is mistaken about some things did not and does not make one a sinner; being wrong is not a sin.

[myth-one.com]

The fault wasn't in the Covenant...

The Bible, as inspired by God, states otherwise:

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Did God get it wrong?

. . . it clearly says the fault was in THEM. The fault of the Old Covenant was in the inability of Man to live up to the terms... but the terms don't change.

Under the New Testament Covenant, one must believe in Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins to gain everlasting life:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

That was not the requirement under the Old Testament. One had to remain free of sin to gain everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant.

Men become Angels? Where do you get that?

From the scriptures.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

If we are equal unto the angels, then we are angels.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to post 26 by myth-one.com]


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry , by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established G3549 upon better promises .

G3549

Original: νομοθετέω Transliteration: nomothete� Phonetic: nom-oth-et-eh'-o

Thayer Definition:

1. to enact laws a. laws are enacted or prescribed for one, to be legislated for, furnished with laws 2. to sanction by law, enact

Origin: from G3550 TDNT entry: 22:10,6 Part(s) of speech: Verb

Strong's Definition:

From G3550; to legislate, that is, (passively) to have (the Mosaic) enactments injoined, be sanctioned (by them): - establish, receive the law.

the only other place this is used is Hebrews 7

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law G3549,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

so it should read:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which receives the Law upon better promises .

The law doesn't change. It is the promises that changed. He is the mediator of a covenant of law established on better promises.

But regarding the Angels... are we better Angels?

1 Corinthians 6:2-3  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?  (3)  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1 John 3:1-2  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.  (2)  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Psa 17:15  As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. 
Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. 

[myth-one.com]

There was and always will be only one everlasting covenant.

There were two according to the scriptures:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

There is one, and only one, covenant active at any time. Perhaps that explains the confusion.

God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Bible is not a series of "Plan Bs". God has never had to say, "Well, that didn't work, so let's try this."

Mankind is a "Plan B," as is the New Testament Covenant. That's two examples.

There are and will be a lot of folks in heaven . . .

Definition of folks: People (humans) in general.

There will never be any people or folks in "heaven":

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

And the Kingdom of Heaven is where the scriptures state that born again Christians shall reside, not Heaven itself:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

[PinSeeker]

There was and always will be only one everlasting covenant.

There were two according to the scriptures:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

There is one, and only one, covenant active at any time. Perhaps that explains the confusion.

Nope. There is no "confusion."

* To Noah, God said, "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.� (Genesis 9:16)

* To Abraham, God said:

• "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you." (Genesis 17:7)
  
  "A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant." (Genesis 17:13)
  
  “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him." (Genesis 17:19)

* David said:

• , “Truly is not my house so with God? For He has made an everlasting covenant with me. (2 Samuel 23:5)
  
  * Through the prophet Jeremiah, in telling of the coming of Jesus, God said: "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me." (Jeremiah 32:40)
  
  "He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac. Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant." (Psalm 105)

So there are several different covenants, but they are all everlasting. That means they are all part of the one. Yes, in the sense that all the lesser covenants are shadows of the Real Thing to come, they are cumulatively the first and Jesus is the second. This is what Hebrews 8 (which you quoted above) is saying. But there is a sense aiso -- a greater sense -- in which the covenant was always one, it just had to be expressed in a final and perfect way, in Christ Jesus. This is how the writer of Hebrews is able to say:

* "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son..." (1:1-2)

...and...

* "For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God... so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant." (7:18-19, 22)

Mankind is a "Plan B..."

Wow. No, but I'll have to remember that one; in all my travels, I've never heard that before.

...as is the New Testament Covenant.

No, the New Testament is a continuation of God's Story of redemption.

There will never be any people or folks in "heaven."

You mean heaven will be empty??? Oh, sure there will. We'll be glorified folks, unable to sin, but folks just the same otherwise.

[myth-one.com]

so it should read:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which receives the Law upon better promises .

OK, the new or better covenant is based upon better promises. So we agree that there were two Covenants -- the first covenant and the better covenant!

But regarding the Angels... are we better Angels?

One might expect less insubordination in the Kingdom of God from us new angels as we have undergone a training period.

The original angels were created directly as spiritual beings. Satan and his followers desired more power, so they rebelled.

Man was then made a little lower that the angels, but is given the opportunity to become equal to the angels through his own personal choice.

Man is in training to learn that his way of living is not the best way. Satan and his angels did not have this indoctrination period. The Bible teaches us that following the laws of God is the best way to live.

Most humans learn this the hard way. As we reach the end of our lives we pause to reflect on our past and typically conclude something to the effect of "What a fool I was."

Due to this taste of life as physical beings, perhaps we will be better prepared for our everlasting life as spiritual beings.

But one thing we should certainly realize at that time is that we are better than no one.