What does this verse prove?

[Elijah John]

I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
King James Version

For debate:

What does this verse prove, Biblically?

Does it prove that Jesus is YHVH?

Or does it prove that YHVH, not Jesus, is the Savior?

[liamconnor]

I think the real question has been evaded here (and elsewhere, for who knows how long).

(At this point, I am ignoring the trinitarian distinction between the Father and Son, since the OP is interested merely in the divinity of Jesus).


On what grounds are we to decide whether Jesus was an eternal entity incarnated in the flesh?

Are we to decide on sheer logic? This of course won't do. We know next to nothing about divinity to determine by pure reasoning whether it could incarnate.

Scripturally? But this only means what certain authors of Scripture have said about Jesus. Isaiah obviously did not know Jesus, so we are left with evaluating the statements made by the authors of the N.T., who both knew (or knew of) Jesus and knew Isaiah's writings.

And what criterion are we following when evaluating their statements?

Obviously it cannot be so strict as a Hebraic utterance of the covenantal name YHWH in conjunction with Jesus. The N.T. is written in Greek; and as far as we know, no Greek transliteration of YWHW was ever used.

Thus we are forced to look for other criteria, or throw up our hands and say "only an explicit attribution of the Hebraic Name to Jesus will convince me of his divinity". But this stringent criterion itself requires argumentation in its defense.

Other less stringent criteria may include:

1) examining literature which clearly refers to the God of Israel to extract UNIQUE characteristics; then to see whether any of these are ascribed to Jesus in the N.T.

2) examining the Greek O.T. to see what Greek terms are designated to YHWH, and see if these are designated to Jesus.

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
King James Version


For debate:

What does this verse prove, Biblically?

Does it prove that Jesus is YHVH?

Or does it prove that YHVH, not Jesus, is the Savior?

Given everything else we know via Scripture I think it means Jesus is God.


Acts 20:28 - "Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with His own Blood."


Can you tell me if Jehovah ever shed His own Blood?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
King James Version


For debate:

What does this verse prove, Biblically?

Does it prove that Jesus is YHVH?

Or does it prove that YHVH, not Jesus, is the Savior?

Given everything else we know via Scripture I think it means Jesus is God.


Acts 20:28 - "Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with His own Blood."


Can you tell me if Jehovah ever shed His own Blood?

Inaccurate Bible translation.

The Good News Bible, the Contemporary English Version, and the New English Translation don't translate it as 'his own blood' but translate it as 'blood of his Son.'

Do you know why?

[2timothy316]

You say Jesus didn't claim to be God?


Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’�

John 13:19
“I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.

Another inaccurate assumption based on eisegesis. It is also based on biased and inaccurate translations.

"I am who I am" is not accurate. The correct meaning is "He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists" or "He causes to become".

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Yahweh

Question for you, when Jesus said 'I am who I am' did Jesus think he was equal to God? Or is it possible that the trinity doctrine is being utilized in the well known flawed eisegesis style by adding something because their doctrine demands it.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 23 by 2timothy316]

You are aware that the whole of the New Testament is based on faulty interpretation (by human standards) of the Old Testament? That is that by Christianity's claims, it could never have been humanly discerned from the OT itself.

You do understand that the very same type of Orthodoxy that gave us the New Testament also gave the Apostles creed and the rules of interpretation from which you are pulling these fancy words?

I have no problem with your objection to its understanding but it's absurd to say that they came to a faulty understanding of a "divinely revealed truth" through some fault of rational interpretation.

In reality it is no more absurd to say that God begat a human being who preexisted the universe than it is that this individual is God.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 23 by 2timothy316]

You are aware that the whole of the New Testament is based on faulty interpretation (by human standards) of the Old Testament?

I have found the OT and NT to be quite harmonious. It's only when doctrines like the trinity and hellfire are introduced that it's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

That is that by Christianity's claims, it could never have been humanly discerned from the OT itself.

Sounds like a cop-out as to why their doctrines aren't fitting.

You do understand that the very same type of Orthodoxy that gave us the New Testament also gave the Apostles creed and the rules of interpretation from which you are pulling these fancy words?

What fancy words? You mean eisegesis and exegesis? They didn't use exegesis for interpretation, that's for sure. So I don't know where you learned the above statement but I'd recommend more research into the matter. These rules you speak of, please to direct me to that list in the Bible please. If it's not from the Bible, well then we can see why it's flawed.

I have no problem with your objection to its understanding but it's absurd to say that they came to a faulty understanding of a "divinely revealed truth" through some fault of rational interpretation.

'Rational interpretation' or finding text they want to support their own ideas? What you have shown in your interpretations are not rational they are examples of doctrine leading the scriptures (eisegesis) rather than scriptures leading the doctrine (exegesis). These two ways of decrement are not compatible. Someone said a long time ago, "I can prove a trinity here are the verses." Meanwhile completely tossing scriptures that contradict it as, how did you put it? "Could never have been humanly discerned". Do you really buy that when the Bible contradicts the trinity doctrine? It's a simple matter of who do you think it right? Do you think the Bible is right what it says of God or some person telling you what you should think the Bible says?

In reality it is no more absurd to say that God begat a human being who preexisted the universe than it is that this individual is God.

Who cares what is thought of as absurd. It's viewing the Bible objectively and making a choice as to what is it's message. Is it a book just to prove the trinity and whatever we want it to be as some use it or something else entirely as something we should be learning from rather than what we learn being put on the Bible.

[RightReason]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Inaccurate Bible translation.

The Good News Bible, the Contemporary English Version, and the New English Translation don't translate it as 'his own blood' but translate it as 'blood of his Son.'

Inaccurate Bible translation. The Greek word son (huios) does not appear. It reads: periepoiesato dia tou haimatos tou idiou.

Which is as correct translations shows with His own Blood

Christendom agrees . . .

New International Version
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

New Living Translation
"So guard yourselves and God's people. Feed and shepherd God's flock--his church, purchased with his own blood--over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders.

English Standard Version
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Berean Study Bible
Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

Berean Literal Bible
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has set you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with the own blood.

New American Standard Bible
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

King James Bible
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Christian Standard Bible
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock that the Holy Spirit has appointed you to as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

International Standard Version
Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to be shepherds of God's church, which he acquired with his own blood.

New Heart English Bible
Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which he purchased with his own blood.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Pay attention to yourselves therefore, and to the whole flock in which The Spirit of Holiness has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the Church of God which he has purchased with his blood.�

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as bishops to be shepherds for God's church which he acquired with his own blood.

New American Standard 1977
“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as bishops to feed the congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones} of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

King James 2000 Bible
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

American King James Version
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

American Standard Version
Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Darby Bible Translation
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.

English Revised Version
Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in the which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.

Webster's Bible Translation
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Weymouth New Testament
"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has placed you to take the oversight for Him and act as shepherds to the Church of God, which He has bought with His own blood.

World English Bible
Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.

Young's Literal Translation
'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,


Oooh . . . and here's a question for you which translation should we use? As you can see, it matters. So, by whose authority do you know you are reading the correct translation?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 25 by 2timothy316]

So you do believe that God begat the human embryo Jesus?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

Inaccurate Bible translation.

The Good News Bible, the Contemporary English Version, and the New English Translation don't translate it as 'his own blood' but translate it as 'blood of his Son.'

Inaccurate Bible translation. The Greek word son (huios) does not appear. It reads: periepoiesato dia tou haimatos tou idiou.

Which is as correct translations shows with His own Blood

Christendom agrees . . .

Not all of Christendom agrees, that statement is not true. The Good News Bible, the Contemporary English Version, and the New English Translation don't translate it as 'his own blood' but translate it as 'blood of his Son.'

Do you know why some translate it that way? The clue is not the missing word for son but in the translation of 'own'.

https://biblehub.com/greek/2398.htm
idios: one's own, distinct
Original Word: ἴδιος, α, ν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: idios
Phonetic Spelling: (id'-ee-os)
Definition: one's own, distinct
Usage: one's own, belonging to one, private, personal; one's own people, one's own family, home, property.

Note the bold. One's own family is another use for the Greek word for 'own'. Why are some noting own can include family while others don't?

1 John 1:7 says, "But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

To be in harmony with 1 John 1:7 Which translation is correct for Acts 20:28? His own blood or the blood of his son? The Greek already has a provision for 'one's own family' so the Greek is correct. But either Acts 20:28 is wrong or 1 John 1:7 is wrong. Or they are both right and Acts 20:28 is not correctly translated in most Bibles. Note too I didn't need a priest or someone to explain this, I used the Bible to explain the Bible.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 25 by 2timothy316]

So you do believe that God begat the human embryo Jesus?

"But Mary said to the angel: “How is this to be, since I am not having sexual relations with a man?� In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son." Luke 1:34, 35

I have faith that the above happened.