Telling Demons from God

[ElCodeMonkey]

If one "spirit" tells you X and another tells you NOT X, how do you know which is right? I imagine, for a lot of people, you'll likely say "well does it jive with the Bible?" Barring the fact that most things can be forced to jive if you want it too, how do we know it wasn't a demon who whispered the idea to take the Bible as God's word to begin with? What if that whole concept was a demon whisper and the God whisper is "ugh, listen to me, not the book!" and we unjustly turn away the God-whisper? Of course, it's just as possible that God is saying to follow the book while a demon says to follow him. So how does one tell them apart? How do you know which is God and which is demon and especially if disagreeing about the book itself? Why default to believing the "follow the book" one without a good reason? Please note, the book cannot give an authoritative answer on this. It could contain useful advice, but not with authority on the matter of determining its own authority. So how do you tell spirits apart?

[ElCodeMonkey]

If Satan can't even cast out demons to fool people, how can he possibly use the Bible if the Bible is so good?

Water is good. Fire is good. E=Mc2 is good. Freedom is good. All have been used for bad. There is no such thing as 'good only be used for good.' Whoever said that is lying.

Well... Jesus kinda said that. And is fire itself actually good? Or can it simply be used for good? Whereas casting out a demon is itself good is it not? Freedom is good in itself. With freedom, one can choose to do bad, but it's the bad that person does that is bad and not the freedom. So the Bible itself is not good. But if the Bible itself is not good and can be used for both good and bad much like fire and guns, can it truly be God's word? God's word itself would have to be good would it not? The statement to love others is itself good? It could therefore be God's word if God is good. If God IS good, then everything about him IS good. Good cannot itself be used for bad because the bad remains bad and the good remains good in the same way you cannot use light to create darkness. And in case you're thinking it, it cannot create the shadow cuz that darkness is already there without the light. It creates the light around the shadow, not the shadow itself .

[tam]

Peace to you ECM,

If one "spirit" tells you X and another tells you NOT X, how do you know which is right? I imagine, for a lot of people, you'll likely say "well does it jive with the Bible?" Barring the fact that most things can be forced to jive if you want it too, how do we know it wasn't a demon who whispered the idea to take the Bible as God's word to begin with? What if that whole concept was a demon whisper and the God whisper is "ugh, listen to me, not the book!" and we unjustly turn away the God-whisper? Of course, it's just as possible that God is saying to follow the book while a demon says to follow him. So how does one tell them apart? How do you know which is God and which is demon and especially if disagreeing about the book itself? Why default to believing the "follow the book" one without a good reason? Please note, the book cannot give an authoritative answer on this. It could contain useful advice, but not with authority on the matter of determining its own authority. So how do you tell spirits apart?

Test the inspired expression.

This is what we are supposed to do (1John 4:1). I realize that is written in the bible, but that is what my Lord also taught me to do before I even knew this was written. I saw later that what was written also supported what I had earlier heard from my Lord Jaheshua.

If the message is against Him and His word, then the message cannot be true or from Him (since Christ is the Truth).

That goes for a spirit that we might hear ourselves (since there are lying spirits out there as well) as well as for a message that someone else might be claiming came from Christ or God.


We can test the inspired expression (the message) in three ways:

1 - Test the inspired expression against Christ and His word (and anything He has taught). Ask HIM for the truth of the matter. Hold all things up against the Light (that is Christ).

Anything that is in conflict with Christ - the Truth - cannot be true or from God.

(If one does not yet hear or know His voice, then ask for ears to hear, and keep asking, seeking, knocking. His sheep will listen to His voice.)


2 - Test the inspired expression against love. God is love; something that is against love cannot be from God. Truth also comes from God (who is love).


Love also covers over a multitude of sins.



3 - Test the inspired expression against what is written (beginning with what Christ taught in what is written, because even if one is going by that book, Christ is the authority in that book - since He is the Truth, the Word, and the Image of God).


(Even when testing against what is written, one should ask and listen to Christ and let Him open our eyes (and our ears)... because He is the One who opens the scriptures so that we can see and even HEAR what is truly written and what is/was truly meant).




Hope that helps, and may anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear the truth of this matter, as well as to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"




Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[ElCodeMonkey]

1 - Test the inspired expression against Christ and His word (and anything He has taught). Ask HIM for the truth of the matter. Hold all things up against the Light (that is Christ).

Anything that is in conflict with Christ - the Truth - cannot be true or from God.

(If one does not yet hear or know His voice, then ask for ears to hear, and keep asking, seeking, knocking. His sheep will listen to His voice.)

This one I take issue with because it simply asks if the spirit is God's rather than explaining how to know it's God's. How do we know that the Christ you know is truly the Christ and not one pretending to be the Christ to throw you off? Your second point can do that, but this first point cannot.

2 - Test the inspired expression against love. God is love; something that is against love cannot be from God. Truth also comes from God (who is love).

This I would agree with entirely. Love is something we can compare to for things that involve a moral element. A spirit says to kill someone, we say no. But what if it was trying to get us to stop baby Hitler? Also, if a spirit says we should wrap ourselves in blankets like burritos on Fridays, how can you know it's from God himself? We can't compare that to love.

3 - Test the inspired expression against what is written (beginning with what Christ taught in what is written, because even if one is going by that book, Christ is the authority in that book - since He is the Truth, the Word, and the Image of God).

(Even when testing against what is written, one should ask and listen to Christ and let Him open our eyes (and our ears)... because He is the One who opens the scriptures so that we can see and even HEAR what is truly written and what is/was truly meant).

And here we're back to comparing with the book. But what if the demons started the book? How can you know you are not being mislead? If God himself wanted to tell you the book is wrong, how could you possibly hear him? Would you let him tell you this or do you limit what God can say?

[2timothy316]

If Satan can't even cast out demons to fool people, how can he possibly use the Bible if the Bible is so good?

Water is good. Fire is good. E=Mc2 is good. Freedom is good. All have been used for bad. There is no such thing as 'good only be used for good.' Whoever said that is lying.

Well... Jesus kinda said that.

Could I get a scripture please where Jesus said good things are only used for good.

And is fire itself actually good? Or can it simply be used for good? Whereas casting out a demon is itself good is it not? Freedom is good in itself. With freedom, one can choose to do bad, but it's the bad that person does that is bad and not the freedom. So the Bible itself is not good. But if the Bible itself is not good and can be used for both good and bad much like fire and guns, can it truly be God's word? God's word itself would have to be good would it not? The statement to love others is itself good? It could therefore be God's word if God is good. If God IS good, then everything about him IS good. Good cannot itself be used for bad because the bad remains bad and the good remains good in the same way you cannot use light to create darkness. And in case you're thinking it, it cannot create the shadow cuz that darkness is already there without the light. It creates the light around the shadow, not the shadow itself .

The end result is what lets us know if something is being used for good. Satan used the scriptures to encourage Jesus to use his power selfishly, conquer the world, worship Satan rather than Jehovah and throw himself off a cliff. So, how can we tell if the Bible is being used properly? We can tell by the desired result. Is the Bible being used to turn away from commandments in the Bible? Is it being used to justify brutally subduing others? Is it being used to encourage harm to ourselves to test God's powers? If so, you're listening to demons. How did Jesus reply to Satan's misuse of the scriptures? He used the scriptures himself. So when a person tries to use the Bible to push their own selfish agenda we should follow Jesus example and use the Bible do reply to them. This doesn't make the Bible bad but it doesn't mean that every person that picks up the Bible is going to use it for it's intended purpose which is for the betterment of mankind. Just like fire, water, nuclear energy, and freedom are not always used for the betterment of mankind but they in of themselves are not bad. All of these things were meant to be helpful to us. Just like the Bible is meant to be helpful but interpretation by people intending evil results shows their fruits not the Bible's fruits. The Bible even says that a wicked person will be known by their fruits or what they produce. This is how to distinguish between Jehovah and His enemies. Jesus said several ways we'd know his people one is, "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.� - John 13:35. If we look at history we can see by the fruits of religions in the past, looking at their results, do you think they are followers of Jesus or demons?

[ElCodeMonkey]

If Satan can't even cast out demons to fool people, how can he possibly use the Bible if the Bible is so good?

Water is good. Fire is good. E=Mc2 is good. Freedom is good. All have been used for bad. There is no such thing as 'good only be used for good.' Whoever said that is lying.

Well... Jesus kinda said that.

Could I get a scripture please where Jesus said good things are only used for good.

I was inferring from Jesus statement below:

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Either his argument is sound or it is not. Can Satan cast out Satan without being divided against himself? If so, then Jesus was wrong and his teaching is suspect. If not, then why not? What sense does it make? How can we make any rational understanding out of this given that we know very well that Satan can appear as an angel of light and can even use scripture to deceive? What makes him incapable of this part? What rule is broken? Doesn't scripture speak against the devil? So how can the devil uplift scripture? Isn't he just as divided then? What's the difference?

All of these things were meant to be helpful to us. Just like the Bible is meant to be helpful but interpretation by people intending evil results shows their fruits not the Bible's fruits. The Bible even says that a wicked person will be known by their fruits or what they produce. This is how to distinguish between Jehovah and His enemies. Jesus said several ways we'd know his people one is, "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.� - John 13:35. If we look at history we can see by the fruits of religions in the past, looking at their results, do you think they are followers of Jesus or demons?

So Jesus' guideline is looking at fruit. If the fruit is what matters, then why do we keep comparing to the Bible rather than simply comparing to "what is good?" Satan can compare to the Bible. Satan cannot cast out demons for some reason. We know if something is good by its fruit. So clearly Satan cannot have good fruit. Humans can have good fruit and bad fruit alike and the Bible seems to have both fruit as well. It does not only lead to good. Satan apparently cannot do any good at all like casting out demons. But again, he can indeed use the Bible.

Before responding, would you mind using your own words to express what argument you believe I am making? I'm not sure if I'm formulating it in a way that others can understand. And if you don't understand my point you can't adequately respond to it.

[2timothy316]

If Satan can't even cast out demons to fool people, how can he possibly use the Bible if the Bible is so good?

Water is good. Fire is good. E=Mc2 is good. Freedom is good. All have been used for bad. There is no such thing as 'good only be used for good.' Whoever said that is lying.

Well... Jesus kinda said that.

Could I get a scripture please where Jesus said good things are only used for good.

I was inferring from Jesus statement below:

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Either his argument is sound or it is not. Can Satan cast out Satan without being divided against himself? If so, then Jesus was wrong and his teaching is suspect. If not, then why not? What sense does it make? How can we make any rational understanding out of this given that we know very well that Satan can appear as an angel of light and can even use scripture to deceive? What makes him incapable of this part? What rule is broken? Doesn't scripture speak against the devil? So how can the devil uplift scripture? Isn't he just as divided then? What's the difference?

The intended results is the difference. For Satan to cast out a demon from a person is not helping his cause. Seeing that Satan wants no one to serve Jehovah God, Jesus is asking why would Satan undermine his own organization's goal? People free of a demon's influence doesn't help Satan's cause. Even removing a single demon's influence over a person is a step in the wrong direction, even if it to make him appear like an 'angel of light'. There is no Biblical evidence that Satan gives anyone freedom from his system to gain ground elsewhere. No where in the Bible does he gives a person up so that he can gain another. That's a bad business model, 1-1+1=1, there is no gain and highly inefficient. Satan turns himself in an angel of light in other much more effective ways. Like going through the motions that he casting out a demon, but really he isn't. A healing televangelist is a good example. Those folks are an excellent example of misdirecting people. Taking their money and giving false hope to lead people away from the right way to serve God.

All of these things were meant to be helpful to us. Just like the Bible is meant to be helpful but interpretation by people intending evil results shows their fruits not the Bible's fruits. The Bible even says that a wicked person will be known by their fruits or what they produce. This is how to distinguish between Jehovah and His enemies. Jesus said several ways we'd know his people one is, "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.� - John 13:35. If we look at history we can see by the fruits of religions in the past, looking at their results, do you think they are followers of Jesus or demons?

So Jesus' guideline is looking at fruit. If the fruit is what matters, then why do we keep comparing to the Bible rather than simply comparing to "what is good?"

In Somalia, if a person commits murder to get off the hook sometimes all the offender has to do is pay the local chief for what they think the person is worth. Is this good? My point being who determines what is good? Should we use the Bible? Or live by Somali tribal law? Or by some other law? Tell me, what is good? And while thinking of your answer where did your idea of good come from and why should anyone except your idea of good?

Satan can compare to the Bible. Satan cannot cast out demons for some reason. We know if something is good by its fruit. So clearly Satan cannot have good fruit. Humans can have good fruit and bad fruit alike and the Bible seems to have both fruit as well. It does not only lead to good. Satan apparently cannot do any good at all like casting out demons. But again, he can indeed use the Bible.

The Bible says of the Word of God "is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart." The bad fruit you think is coming from the Bible is just the Bible exposing the fruit of the person. The Bible itself is not to blame for someone misusing it to harm others, no more than nuclear physics is responsible for the Hydration Bomb. A book is just paper and ink. It's what it says and how a person interprets what it says is where the fruit comes from.

Before responding, would you mind using your own words to express what argument you believe I am making? I'm not sure if I'm formulating it in a way that others can understand. And if you don't understand my point you can't adequately respond to it.

I will always answer using the Bible. So I will quote it often. Other that what I quote, everything is my own words. So I don't understand the issue here. If you don't like that I quote the Bible then feel free to talk to someone else. This forum is not the CA forum, in this forum the Bible has the highest authority as a go-to reference and it is expected to be used when there is a need to know what is true concerning matters of theology, doctrine and dogma. The guidelines for the forum can be found here, viewtopic.php?t=11496

So if you want answers without reference to the Bible might I suggest posting your topics in the CA forum where there are several people that will be happy to give you all sorts of baseless personal opinions. My answers however, will be Bible based.

[ttruscott]

Let's consider Eve for a moment:

Was she innocent and ignorant as newly created and therefore gullible or was she sinful and therefore blinded by sin?

Gen 3:1 ...He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?� This implies that:
- She knew GOD, who HE was and what HIS name status meant.
- She knew GOD HIMself had given a command not to eat, Gen 3:2...God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ �, well enough to correct the serpent and slip under his flattery.
- Then the serpent explained to her and in her spiritual blindness she followed his thinking.

She knows a waaaaay too much to be considered ignorant and if she was innocent then GOD could not be said to be treating her lovingly, letting the serpent at her without warning.

But if she was sinful already because she considered the serpent to be her friend, a state GOD could never abide in HIS people, HE might just let the serpent beguile her to her detriment to open her eyes to her sinfulness in her relationship with him...

So I am moved to claim it is our sinfulness that makes us unable to view the demons as dangerous and not as mentors and pastors or at least, friends. And it is GOD who is in
charge of 'fixing' our sinfulness, opening our eyes and bringing us to holiness. We cannot defeat them from our sinful state, but we can put our faith in HIM to look after our best interests...

[ElCodeMonkey]

The intended results is the difference. For Satan to cast out a demon from a person is not helping his cause. Seeing that Satan wants no one to serve Jehovah God, Jesus is asking why would Satan undermine his own organization's goal? People free of a demon's influence doesn't help Satan's cause.

Jesus was teaching things in contradiction to the Pharisees. If he agreed with them they would have loved him, so clearly his message was different than theirs in some fashion. A different "religion" so to say. So if they held the same belief as you, holding strongly to the only religion of Jehovah of the day, and believing that anyone speaking against their concepts is of the devil, then wouldn't casting out a demon be a great way to lead people astray? If Satan was trying to trick them into following him, it would make perfect sense to cast out demons to "prove" that he knew the "right" religion and that the Pharisees were wrong. Same today. If someone cast out demons before your eyes and said "the Bible is wrong", you would quite likely believe it was a trick of Satan himself just like the Pharisees. And yet Jesus said it was not possible to occur. So anyone casting out demons couldn't possibly be wrong, right? What is the real argument here? How does your situation differ from the Pharisees in such a hypothetical?

In Somalia, if a person commits murder to get off the hook sometimes all the offender has to do is pay the local chief for what they think the person is worth. Is this good? My point being who determines what is good?

It would be an entirely different topic, perhaps, defining what is good, but I'd like to point out that you used this example because you know I would recognize it as "not good". We both intrinsically know it's bad. I'd like to set "how to know" aside for now or start a different topic for that though. How to do is different than should we do.

The Bible says of the Word of God "is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart." The bad fruit you think is coming from the Bible is just the Bible exposing the fruit of the person.The Bible itself is not to blame for someone misusing it to harm others, no more than nuclear physics is responsible for the Hydration Bomb.

I'd like to point out that the Word of God existed long before the Bible did. The Bible is therefore not itself the Word of God. This topic may have indeed been better in the Christianity and Apologetics forum. I thought it was a theological question, but didn't realize that questioning the nature of the Bible as part of the hypothetical would itself oust it from this subforum. Maybe Otseng would like to move it.

I will always answer using the Bible. So I will quote it often. Other that what I quote, everything is my own words. So I don't understand the issue here. If you don't like that I quote the Bible then feel free to talk to someone else. This forum is not the CA forum, in this forum the Bible has the highest authority as a go-to reference and it is expected to be used when there is a need to know what is true concerning matters of theology, doctrine and dogma. The guidelines for the forum can be found here, viewtopic.php?t=11496

So if you want answers without reference to the Bible might I suggest posting your topics in the CA forum where there are several people that will be happy to give you all sorts of baseless personal opinions. My answers however, will be Bible based.

I didn't ask for answers without reference to the Bible. I asked you to rephrase my position in your own words so I can see if you're understanding what I am saying is my argument. If I am arguing A implies B and you're hearing A implies C, then your responses will not make sense to me and vice versa. If you say that I am saying A implies B in your own words, it helps to ensure we are on the same page.

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 27 by ttruscott]

So what I am hearing you say (take note 2timothy316, this is a great example of what I'm hoping from you :-p) is that because we are too sinful ourselves, we could never truly tell the God voices apart from the Demon voices? As such, we should simply have faith... in... this is where I get lost. How do we know what to have faith in if we can't tell the voices apart? Or am I misunderstanding your position?

[2timothy316]

The intended results is the difference. For Satan to cast out a demon from a person is not helping his cause. Seeing that Satan wants no one to serve Jehovah God, Jesus is asking why would Satan undermine his own organization's goal? People free of a demon's influence doesn't help Satan's cause.

Jesus was teaching things in contradiction to the Pharisees. If he agreed with them they would have loved him, so clearly his message was different than theirs in some fashion. A different "religion" so to say. So if they held the same belief as you, holding strongly to the only religion of Jehovah of the day, and believing that anyone speaking against their concepts is of the devil, then wouldn't casting out a demon be a great way to lead people astray?

This is what I mean by focusing on the results. Was speaking against the Pharisees' concepts a good thing or a bad thing? What do you think? Are you familiar with the Jewish religion of Jesus' day?

If Satan was trying to trick them into following him, it would make perfect sense to cast out demons to "prove" that he knew the "right" religion and that the Pharisees were wrong. Same today. If someone cast out demons before your eyes and said "the Bible is wrong", you would quite likely believe it was a trick of Satan himself just like the Pharisees.

You're correct that I would not fall for the trick, not because of the reason you state but because Satan doesn't give people back so they can find Jehovah. There is no record of Satan ever doing this.

And yet Jesus said it was not possible to occur. So anyone casting out demons couldn't possibly be wrong, right? What is the real argument here? How does your situation differ from the Pharisees in such a hypothetical?

Because I wounldn't follow a teaching just because they are God's chosen nation. If their teachings contradict what the Word of God says, who cares what they call themselves or who they are. Remember, it's the results of what the person wants is what tells what is from God and what is from Satan. So if a person said the Bible is wrong and then cast out a demon. I wouldn't believe their statement or that they cast out a demon, because Satan doesn't give people back for any reason. It would be self-defeating.

In Somalia, if a person commits murder to get off the hook sometimes all the offender has to do is pay the local chief for what they think the person is worth. Is this good? My point being who determines what is good?

It would be an entirely different topic, perhaps, defining what is good, but I'd like to point out that you used this example because you know I would recognize it as "not good". We both intrinsically know it's bad. I'd like to set "how to know" aside for now or start a different topic for that though. How to do is different than should we do.

I was just responding to what you said,
"So Jesus' guideline is looking at fruit. If the fruit is what matters, then why do we keep comparing to the Bible rather than simply comparing to "what is good?"

I was noting that we can't just 'simply compare' to what is good, because it isn't that simple. it's the major problem in the world today, everyone has their own idea as to what is 'good'. I use the Bible as a comparison because it has been proven to me that Jehovah is one that actually would know everything that is good for us. While mankind stumbles around guessing. However, it going to be hard to 'tell demons from God' if we don't have an agreement as to what good is. Because to have a topic called 'telling demons from God' you might as well be asking 'telling bad from good'.

The Bible says of the Word of God "is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart." The bad fruit you think is coming from the Bible is just the Bible exposing the fruit of the person.The Bible itself is not to blame for someone misusing it to harm others, no more than nuclear physics is responsible for the Hydration Bomb.

I'd like to point out that the Word of God existed long before the Bible did. The Bible is therefore not itself the Word of God.

Why can't both be right? God's word existed long before the Bible and the Bible is God's Word. God's Word will also exist if He ever decides to stop backing the Bible. If He does then the Bible will fade into nothingness.

This topic may have indeed been better in the Christianity and Apologetics forum. I thought it was a theological question, but didn't realize that questioning the nature of the Bible as part of the hypothetical would itself oust it from this subforum. Maybe Otseng would like to move it.

As long as we are using the Bible as the source for our answers then it's in the right place.

I will always answer using the Bible. So I will quote it often. Other that what I quote, everything is my own words. So I don't understand the issue here. If you don't like that I quote the Bible then feel free to talk to someone else. This forum is not the CA forum, in this forum the Bible has the highest authority as a go-to reference and it is expected to be used when there is a need to know what is true concerning matters of theology, doctrine and dogma. The guidelines for the forum can be found here, viewtopic.php?t=11496

So if you want answers without reference to the Bible might I suggest posting your topics in the CA forum where there are several people that will be happy to give you all sorts of baseless personal opinions. My answers however, will be Bible based.

I didn't ask for answers without reference to the Bible. I asked you to rephrase my position in your own words so I can see if you're understanding what I am saying is my argument. If I am arguing A implies B and you're hearing A implies C, then your responses will not make sense to me and vice versa. If you say that I am saying A implies B in your own words, it helps to ensure we are on the same page.

I get what you're saying but I don't think you understand Satan as well as the Bible does. You say Satan can't force out demon but what Jesus says in the Bible is that Satan can't cast out demons without working against himself and harming his own goals. The Jewish leadership was in effect crediting Satan with doing something good. To put it in terms that you might be able to relate to: It would be like if the NRA lobbied for the destruction of all hand guns to gain the support of those that hate guns. Likewise, Jesus was directing people to God and a better way of life with his healing of people. This goes against everything Satan is trying to do. Again, focusing on the wanted result is how we tell demons from God.