Clear Challenges to the Trinity Doctrine Examined

dio9 · Post by **dio9** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:14 pm

The trinity was cooked up by Greek Church Fathers . I can see God as Father (as Jesus taught) and Jesus (who never declared himself to be God) but the third person should be the feminine nature of God expressed in creation as Father Mother and savior son. It is a mistake to think the HS is male. Are we to think God is all male? Who then is the source of female nature expressed historically as blessed virgin and Holy Mother. Eve was created in the image of God together with Adam. Trinity is Father Mother and Savior . I see each of these aspects together as God.

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:46 am

I see each of these aspects together as God.

Everyone is free to 'see' whatever they wish.

However it is obvious that no one is able to give the examples requested in Challenges A-E nor answer the questions in F-H. If the trinity were believed in by the writers of the NT, these should have been easily answered.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:26 am

tigger2 wrote:
I see each of these aspects together as God.

Everyone is free to 'see' whatever they wish.

However it is obvious that no one is able to give the examples requested in Challenges A-E nor answer the questions in F-H. If the trinity were believed in by the writers of the NT, these should have been easily answered.

I've repeatedly tried to engage you on your challenges so that seems unfair to make your conclusion. Why would i bother with your list if you won't explore challenge A?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:26 am

Challenge A
Previously you said that if there were clear images of 3 beings in the Bible you would be a Trinitarian and not a Polytheist.

Are you saying there is evidence in the Bible for Trinitarianism to compliment those images? If not then why do you feel you would not be a Polytheist?

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:12 pm

[Replying to Wootah]

My answer to Wootah in another discussion:

I certainly didn't say "that there is no clear example of three beings ever being together in the Bible." Three beings together being referred to as God. is clearly what I asked for.

If I found all 8 challenges clearly pointing to a 3 person God (or even 6 of the 8), I believe I would have to believe in a trinity.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... (post 2)

Since God is clearly and repeatedly called 'one' and if there were also proper examples of His being three in my eight challenges, I would be forced to believe that He is a three-in-one God. Since no one can give clear, scriptural answers to them, I Do not believe in the trinity.

I find it telling that Trinitarians won't do the same. That is, even though they can't provide any clear evidence for a trinity in these very basic challenges, they still won't give up the trinity doctrine.

God is the Father alone. God is YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) alone.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:15 pm

[Replying to post 25 by tigger2]

Yes but you are now bringing your preconceived ideas to the question because you say there is no scriptual support for the concept. So you wouldn't be a trinitarian and even if you would, could you concede that many others might see polytheism in the Bible with the images you request?

If you could conceive that problem (of your request creating more polytheists) have you not an answer to challenge A?

Overcomer · Post by **Overcomer** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:34 pm

I have only just come to this thread and have not read through your eight points, tigger2. But before I do so, I have a question: How do you define the Trinity?

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:21 pm

For Overcomer:

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... p?t=34270

For my understanding of the trinity doctrine see the first several paragraphs of the OP above.

Please respond to my answer to your clear misstatements found in my above link (end of post 8 and all of post 9).

Overcomer · Post by **Overcomer** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:56 pm

tigger2 · Post by **tigger2** » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:35 pm

For Overcomer:

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... p?t=34270

For my understanding of the trinity doctrine see the first several paragraphs of the OP above. Since I don't believe in any form of the trinity doctrine as promoted by various Trinitarians, I have to use the definitions quoted by most Trinitarians.

As for your assertion that the Challenges in the OP are "a list of fallacious arguments from silence" - you are making up your own rule to avoid the obvious facts. It is specifically noted that if the trinity were true, we should expect to find certain obvious things. The Challenge is to find some of these 'obvious' things. I could have missed some of these things (I don't think so), so you should search for them to prove me wrong. (For example I did not examine every vision, dream, etc.
which shows the figure of God.)

This is no more 'fallacious arguments from silence" than challenging Christians to find proof of his Messiahship in scripture by finding things that should obviously be there (if he is truly Christ). 1. Does he ever admit that he is the Christ? 2. Do his disciples ever admit that he is the Christ? Does scripture by Non-Gospel writers ever admit that he is the Christ? Do we ever find that he sits or stands on the right hand of God? Does scripture ever describe things Jesus has done that were never done by others? Is he ever described as the King and savior of men? Did he fulfill any OT scriptures concerning the Messiah? Etc. Aren't these things we would expect to be in scripture if he were truly the Christ?

Which of the challenges in the OP are not to be expected in scripture if the trinity doctrine were true?

Please respond to my answer to your clear misstatements found in my above link (end of post 8 and all of post 9).