The Transfiguration

[Checkpoint]

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 19 by polonius.advice]

I'm considering it to be fictional because the overwhelming evidence is that it didn't happen as described. It's fiction, not history. That should be the basic question.

History or fiction is not a question for debate on this thread or subforum.

That kind of question is often debated on the "Christianity and Apologetics" subforum.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 19 by polonius.advice]

I'm considering it to be fictional because the overwhelming evidence is that it didn't happen as described. It's fiction, not history. That should be the basic question.

History or fiction is not a question for debate on this thread or subforum.

That kind of question is often debated on the "Christianity and Apologetics" subforum.

RESPONSE: I think the fictional nature of some "dogma" is appropriately addressed on this "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma" forum.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I believe it really happened that the four really saw a real vision.

In other words I believe the account of the disciples seeing a vision really happened and that they literally heard the voice of God on that occasion.


JW

This, as usual, is just a bad interpretation of the scriptures directly from Jehovah's Witnesses and the WTS.

The Transfiguration of Jesus was not a vision, it was a physical appearance of Moses and Elijah in the presence of Jesus and his selectively chosen apostles.

Peter suggested that he make three shelters for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah (Matthew 17:4).

Peter certainly knew that Jesus' presence was physical, so why would he suggest a shelter be made for Moses/Elijah, if their presence wasn't also physical?

Makes no sense.

Jehovah's Witnesses obviously have an ax to grind here...because they know if they admit that the Transfiguration appearances were physical, then this would undoubtedly prove life after death (Moses and Elijah had died a long time ago)...and we all know that life after death is completely against JW theology.

And we can't have that, can we?

[For_The_Kingdom]

Matthew, Mark and Luke were not there and wrote their stories at least 50 years after the supposed fact. John is listed as being there, but wrote no such story.

First off, I disagree with the notion that the Gospels were written (aside from John) at least 50 years after the fact. A case can be made for about 25-35 years, which would still be within the lifetime of the apostles. Second, even you are correct, that only tells us when the stories were WRITTEN, not when the stories had ORIGINATED. Big difference. Third, you've yet to address bluethread's post..#20

"So, are you saying that Carl Sandberg's AbrahamLincoln is fiction? He never knew Abraham Lincoln and didn't start writing, what is considered a definitive work, until 58 years after Lincoln's death."

That is clearly the one of the best (if not the best) rebuttals I've ever seen..and there is really no way out of it.

[101G]

[Checkpoint]

I believe it really happened that the four really saw a real vision.

In other words I believe the account of the disciples seeing a vision really happened and that they literally heard the voice of God on that occasion.


JW

This, as usual, is just a bad interpretation of the scriptures directly from Jehovah's Witnesses and the WTS.

The Transfiguration of Jesus was not a vision, it was a physical appearance of Moses and Elijah in the presence of Jesus and his selectively chosen apostles.

Peter suggested that he make three shelters for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah (Matthew 17:4).

Peter certainly knew that Jesus' presence was physical, so why would he suggest a shelter be made for Moses/Elijah, if their presence wasn't also physical?

Makes no sense.

Jehovah's Witnesses obviously have an ax to grind here...because they know if they admit that the Transfiguration appearances were physical, then this would undoubtedly prove life after death (Moses and Elijah had died a long time ago)...and we all know that life after death is completely against JW theology.

And we can't have that, can we?

I suggest you slow down a little, and not be so quick to judge a book by its cover.

Firstly, the Transfiguration was a vision. Jesus said so. Matthew 17:9.

Secondly, Jesus proved life after death by his own resurrection; he is himself the resurrection and the life.

Thirdly, no, I am not, never have been and never will be, a JW.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I suggest you slow down a little, and not be so quick to judge a book by its cover.

Right, I shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Maybe I should just continue judging a book by my 15+ years of dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses and their theology..and also by my listening to the testimony of former/ex Witnesses.

Would that be cool?

Firstly, the Transfiguration was a vision. Jesus said so. Matthew 17:9.

Wait a minute, Jesus said the Transfiguration was a vision, according to Matthew 17:9? I don't believe you. However, lets see..

Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.

*Looking for the word "vision" in the quote from Jesus*

Don't see it.

*Looks again*

Still don't see it.

My argument stands.

Secondly, Jesus proved life after death by his own resurrection; he is himself the resurrection and the life.

Oh I agree. The problem is, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject at hand.

Thirdly, no, I am not, never have been and never will be, a JW.

Me neither.

[Checkpoint]

I suggest you slow down a little, and not be so quick to judge a book by its cover.

Right, I shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Maybe I should just continue judging a book by my 15+ years of dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses and their theology..and also by my listening to the testimony of former/ex Witnesses.

Would that be cool?

Sure. Keep on truckin'.

Firstly, the Transfiguration was a vision. Jesus said so. Matthew 17:9.

Wait a minute, Jesus said the Transfiguration was a vision, according to Matthew 17:9? I don't believe you. However, lets see..

Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.

*Looking for the word "vision" in the quote from Jesus*

Don't see it.

*Looks again*

Still don't see it.

My argument stands.

It depends on what you are looking at.

You appear to be looking at one translation, over and over again.

I am looking at multiple translations that say, "Tell no one the vision until.."

I am also looking at the Interlinear, and finding it confirms the Greek word Jesus used is "vision", and therefore those majority translations are correct.

="Checkpoint"]
Secondly, Jesus proved life after death by his own resurrection; he is himself the resurrection and the life.

Oh I agree. The problem is, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject at hand.

Quite right, it hasn't.

Because Moses and Elijah were not physically there.

Thirdly, no, I am not, never have been and never will be, a JW.

Me neither.

Good for you.

[Tcg]

JW posted:

Checkpoint wrote:
3) Were Moses and Elijah literally there?


No, it was a vision.

RESPONSE: So it was only a vision not a real happening.

A vision is a real happening.

In real time, in a real place, to real people who have real memories of such real experiences.

If your assertion were true, Checkpoint, there'd be no need for the word , "vision". A vision doesn't happen in real time, in a real place, and people who have real memories of such are the same as people who have real memories of hallucinations. The fact that the memory is real, doesn't mean the visons they had are real.

[Checkpoint]

JW posted:

Checkpoint wrote:
3) Were Moses and Elijah literally there?


No, it was a vision.

RESPONSE: So it was only a vision not a real happening.

A vision is a real happening.

In real time, in a real place, to real people who have real memories of such real experiences.

If your assertion were true, Checkpoint, there'd be no need for the word , "vision". A vision doesn't happen in real time, in a real place, and people who have real memories of such are the same as people who have real memories of hallucinations. The fact that the memory is real, doesn't mean the visons they had are real.

Although visions, hallucinations, dreams, and voices, are not literally or physically real, that does not invalidate my assertion.