The Christian Response to Homosexuality

[micatala]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?


Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread. What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

[Joe Blackbird]

It appears that homosexuals are Christianizing (marriage and family values).

The 'marriage (joining together)' of two human beings is much older than Christianity. So are 'family values'.

[Joe Blackbird]

Oh yeah Easyrider, I almost forgot the ESV and the HCSB. They use the English word 'hate' as well. The GNB and the NLT use some variation of 'Love more than', but neither of them translate the Greek word for word- which is important when quoting God.

[Joe Blackbird]

Why the need to Christian-bash from the leftist crowd? Just debate the thread topic and be done with it.

How exactly does one, 'Christian bash' with Bible quotes? The thread topic is asking us to assume homosexuality is morally wrong, and propose ways for Christians to respond to it. The non-Christians here are simply defending what is actually written in the Bible;

Mat 5:18-19 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

[Easyrider]

Yes. It absolutely is. Don't you take the Bible to be the literal word of God? The passage I quoted has Jesus saying that the Law should be followed until 'heaven and earth pass away'.

Actually the qualification in that passage is "until everything is accomplished." Jesus fulfilled the law, so the penalty for violating the law was taken upon Christ at Calvary on the behalf of believers.

Oh I see... and my father, my mother and I are the same person.

We were discussing God in the Bible, not your family. Would you like some scriptures on the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit?

Two of which, the NIV and the KJV, are the best selling Bibles in the United States. Collectively, I would estimate about 500-600 biblical scholars were involved in all of these translations together over a period of about 400 years, yet none of them translate the passage (Luke 14:26 - "hate your mother and father) as you suggest it 'should' be translated. Maybe you should translate your own version that eliminates all of the obvious discrepancies. It seemed to work for the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Can I interest you in buying an NIV Study Bible, Joe, and see what it really says?

From the NIV Study Bible on Luke 14:26: "A vivid hyperbole, meaning that one must love Jesus even more that one's immediate family...."

Well, I know what they will not tell me... the truth.

So, all pastors are liars or idiots now? Joe, please....

Like I said, no church I know of, when teaching that passage, interprets it to mean literally hating one's mother and father. I challenge you to identify one mainstream church that does.

Also, there is this:

The Bible Knowledge Commentary notes: "Literally hating one's family would have been a violation of the Law. Since Jesus on several occasions admonished others to fulfill the Law, He must not have meant here that one should literally hate his family." Jesus in this verse is apparently using a vivid hyperbole (an exaggeration or extravagant statement used as a figure of speech). In understanding Jesus' point, one must keep in mind that in the Hebrew mind-set, to "hate" means to "love less" (see Genesis 29:31-33; Deuteronomy 21:15). Jesus is communicating that our supreme love must be for Him alone. Everything else (and everyone else) must take second place. This is in keeping with what Jesus said in Matthew 10:37: "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Measuring our supreme love for Christ against other lesser loves may make these lesser loves seem like hate by comparison. Other Bible scholars have suggested that while the terms "love" and "hate" are manifestations of emotion in the Western mindset, the ancient Jews used these terms to refer more to a decision of the will. To "love" often carried the idea of choosing to submit, whereas "hate" often carried the idea of choosing not to submit. "When Christ demanded that one hate those to whom he is bound by the closest of blood ties, He was not speaking in the area of emotions but in the area of the will. A disciple must make a choice and submit to the authority of Christ rather than to the authority of the family headship." Whichever interpretation is correct above, this passage clearly communicates that one's loyalty to Jesus Christ must come before loyalty to family. Jesus takes first priority.

[Joe Blackbird]

Yes. It absolutely is. Don't you take the Bible to be the literal word of God? The passage I quoted has Jesus saying that the Law should be followed until 'heaven and earth pass away'.

Actually the qualification in that passage is "until everything is accomplished." Jesus fulfilled the law, so the penalty for violating the law was taken upon Christ at Calvary on the behalf of believers.

When heaven and earth cease to exist, only then will 'all be accomplished', according to this passage. Re-read it. Heaven and earth still exist. According to Jesus, the Law should still be taught and practiced while heaven and earth exist.

Oh I see... and my father, my mother and I are the same person.

We were discussing God in the Bible, not your family. Would you like some scriptures on the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit?

And where exactly did you learn what God is composed of OUTSIDE of the Bible? Perhaps you forget, the Bible is not 'proof' of anything to a non-Christian, yet you use it like it's conclusive evidence that something is true. Why not the Bhagivad Gita? Why not the Dhamapada? Why not the Tao Te Ching? Why not the Quran? Why not the PotMeetKettle?

Two of which, the NIV and the KJV, are the best selling Bibles in the United States. Collectively, I would estimate about 500-600 biblical scholars were involved in all of these translations together over a period of about 400 years, yet none of them translate the passage (Luke 14:26 - "hate your mother and father) as you suggest it 'should' be translated. Maybe you should translate your own version that eliminates all of the obvious discrepancies. It seemed to work for the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Can I interest you in buying an NIV Study Bible, Joe, and see what it really says?

From the NIV Study Bible on Luke 14:26: "A vivid hyperbole, meaning that one must love Jesus even more that one's immediate family...."

I have access to the annotations in, pretty much any given study bible on the market. Remember, I work in a Christian bookstore. Commentary and text are not even in the same ballpark friend- surely you must know this. Do you always trust the annotations and commentaries as Gospel? You should try reading the Bible sometime without the comments of a hundred evangelicals interpreting everything you read. It's quite breathtaking.

Well, I know what they will not tell me... the truth.

So, all pastors are liars or idiots now? Joe, please....

People who do not tell the truth because of something they really believe in are not liars. Liars have malicious intent, most pastors (from my experience) do not have malicious intent- but that doesn't mean I have to believe what they teach. I have maintained since the first day I posted here that I do not believe the Bible is completely true. You used the words 'liars and idiots'. I did not. I know quite a few pastors from work. The ones I know are NOT idiots. Most of them are quite humble and intelligent and are generally good natured people that I have a lot of respect for. Some can be pretty rude sometimes, but overall I have no beef with them. Still, I maintain that my comment is accurate and not malicious, because almost all of these pastors would echo the very things that most of the Christians at this site claim; beliefs which are based soley on myth, superstition and a 2000 year old book that has talking donkeys, people living inside of fish for three days and the dead coming back to life.

Like I said, no church I know of, when teaching that passage, interprets it to mean literally hating one's mother and father. I challenge you to identify one mainstream church that does.

If America did not legally protect homosexuals from hate crimes, it wouldn't just be shadowy groups like the KKK and the Creation movement that hunt and kill gays and you know it. Do you think Pat Robertson wouldn't kill a homosexual if it was legal? Having talked to you at some length Easyrider, I have no doubt that you could NEVER do such a despicable thing. I think there are many Christians who could not. But there are also MANY people out there who are just itching for the opportunity. Gay people are beaten and killed all the time, and the hate that causes it doesn't just come from 'disagreeing with their lifestyle'. It comes from zeal. The same kind of zeal that caused those planes to crash into the WTC, and it doesn't care what religion you belong to- as long as you have a cause that means more to you than your own life.

[micatala]

Wow, 3 pages of response in under 7 hours.

It has been suggested to me in a PM that this thread might be more appropriate in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma thread, since it is specifically asking about the Christian Response to homosexuality. I think this is a valid point so will be moving the thread.

I will try to make my first response tomorrow.

[1John2_26]

How exactly does one, 'Christian bash' with Bible quotes? The thread topic is asking us to assume homosexuality is morally wrong, and propose ways for Christians to respond to it. The non-Christians here are simply defending what is actually written in the Bible;

Mat 5:18-19 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Joe, it is hilarious that you think your questions are unique or somehow deep.

Why does "God" in the Old Testament (Torah, Prophets and Writings), keep giving the Israelites a break. Time and time again they screw up and their "Righteous" Yahweh lets them off the hook.

God created us after His image, after His likeness. Male and female He created them. What is truly funny to me is the posturing of the anti-Christianites like you.

By the way "you" could not be "you" without your exact maother and exact father. You are all one. If you had a different mother you would be someone else right now. If you had a different father you would be someone else right now. But, you are you exclusively because of them.

The whole Bible-thing takes soem thinking, but, that is what seperates us from the animals like it or not.

Like it or not, atheists are not the deep thinkers at all. They are the stoppers of reality, where things get difficult to contemplate . . . in my opinion.

I'm the source of so many new threads, not only should I be receiving royalties from the owners of this website, I'll cage my positions in OP/ED-Copyright, whenever I can to make things go smoother.

God commanded the Israelites not to murder and when David did, he was let off the hook. When the Israelites went after other Gods and had leaders that did the same thing . . . they too were let off the hook. Why would the Hebrews write about an absolute God and then show "Him" as having many sides?

Sounds like a relationship to me. Just about every human (not insane or mentally retarded to the point of incapability of reason) in every culture and place on earth, knows the give and take of relationships.

I know its tough to deal with the Bible but I'm thinking real communication from God wouldn't be easy to grasp.

Sorry Puppet Master deities just don't cut it. Our "human" nature proves that. After all, we are created in God's "image."

Now, on to: The Christian Response to Homosexuality .

Welcome home.

By the way, there are rules to being in the house.

[melikio]

Well, If They are TRUE CHRISTIANS(TM), they would want to stone the homosexuals to death......

You're kidding, right? Know of a single mainstream church that teaches that?

The Ku Klux Clan used to BE a mainstream congregation, until people started getting all progressive by protecting minorities and stuff.

LOL! (Few things can make me smile THIS time of night.) You got me.

-Mel-

[melikio]

Joe, it is hilarious that you think your questions are unique or somehow deep.

1John, to one who truly trusts (in faith) that they already have the "answers" to the "questions", perhaps they are perceived as less than profound.

Yet to one who continues to ask, seek or knock (learn), there is recognition of things which reveal the depth you claim is lacking. And YOU wouldn't be the first person to step into a PIT, made to appear as solid ground.

If you knew everything, you wouldn't have to ask anything.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

1John, to one who truly trusts (in faith) that they already have the "answers" to the "questions", perhaps they are perceived as less than profound.

Yet to one who continues to ask, seek or knock (learn), there is recognition of things which reveal the depth you claim is lacking. And YOU wouldn't be the first person to step into a PIT, made to appear as solid ground.

If you knew everything, you wouldn't have to ask anything.

I have proven I know a lot more than many others on this site about the history being played out in this thread.

Melikio,

Could you just once open with a rebuttal instead of opening your diary?

IN THIS THREAD, we could find some common ground. You have some profound things to offer and debate if you would debate.

The Christian response to homosexuality has already been made in the New Testamen, BUT, there are many ways things can go "for" homosexuals.

Now please answer me this:

Do we homosexualize Christianity or Christianize homosexuals?

Your response has true worth.

Don't trust me all you want to; but please answer the question above?