"True worship acceptable to God"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the only group which practices "true worship acceptable to God" and that all other sects do not.

Seems an extraordinary claim.

Prove it!,... Give us extraordinary proof to support your extraordinary claim.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 19 by Checkpoint]





[center]Christianity: Not dead YET, but in a painful holding pattern.[/center]

Simple, "a living sacrifice" is, by definition, living, and therefore not "dead yet".

COOL !!!

Just suffering, I suppose ?
Sacrifice doesn't sound like a trip to Disneyland...
( all expenses payed, of course. Lots of the good Bourbon )

[onewithhim]

(7) Further evidence of truly doing God's will is sanctifying God's name. When Jesus taught his followers how to pray, he showed them that this should be their first concern. He said, "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed by your name.'" Or, "let your name be sanctified." (Matt.6:9, NASB) This means treating it as something holy, not spurning even the usage of His name. Jesus did not fail to use his Father's name, nor did he treat it as unimportant. He said, "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave me out of the world....I have made Your name known to them, and I will make it known." (John 17:6,26, NASB) He set the example in telling the world that name and honoring that name. Also, the Scriptures show that the main purpose for the existence of the congregation that God has called out of the world is to be " a people for his name." (Acts 15:14) We all must know and honor the name of God. (Psalm 83:18, KJV) Though you might not agree with this, what organization is most prominently known for honoring God's name as Jesus did?

(8) True worshipers also preach the Kingdom of God as mankind's only hope. Jehovah has clearly stated that the Kingdom is his provision for governing the earth.

DANIEL 2:44; 7:13,14: "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left to other people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever....To him [the Son of man] was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and his Kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." (NASB) Who preach that God's Kingdom is a real government that will replace worldy governments?


(9) Another requirement of true religion is that it keeps separate from the world and its affairs. This is unappetizing to most people, it seems, but the Scriptures are clear. We must give respect to the authorities and obey the laws of our particular government (Romans 13:1), unless its law conflicts with God's. Do the churches you know of throw aside God's laws and go along with worldly politics? Jesus' brother James said this about getting involved with the politics of the world:

"You [spiritual] adulteresses [and adulterers], do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." (JAMES 4:4, NASB)

So, do we immediately defend the position of the organization we are acquainted with that gets involved with the world's politics? Isn't that going directly against what the Scriptures say? Are there ANY organizations that follow the Scriptures and are no part of the world? (John 17:14)


The true followers of Christ are evident by whoever is following all of these identifying marks. Who could it be? I am confident that JWs can rightly say that they follow all of them. There is no room, scripturally, to say, "Oh but we HAVE to go to war to save our freedom, and we HAVE to get involved with worldly politics so that we can [blah blah blah]!" That thinking does NOT agree with Scripture; it does not agree with things right out of Jesus' mouth.

[Divine Insight]

You seem to be just too hostile to have any sort of 'rational' conversation. You sound like you have judged everything out for yourself already.

I just point out the obvious truth. Why would you consider that to be "hostile"?

All these modern day Christian factions who use Christ to condemn everyone who doesn't agree with their theological opines are the ones who are being "hostile" and they are even using the Christian Christ as their weapon of hatred.

The JW's are the one who are so hostile as to call the Catholics the "Whore of Babylon".

These Johnny-come-lately Christian factions are nothing but a hate cults that uses Christ as a weapon of hatred to condemn everyone who doesn't join and support their specific cult.

In fact, I see this entire religious paradigm as being basically nothing more than this. It's not just Christianity who uses Jesus Christ as their weapon of hatred, but all the Abrahamic religions use this fundamentally jealous God as a weapon of hatred toward anyone who refuses to cower down to their specific faction of the religion.

This was the core foundation of this religious paradigm from the get go.

It's basically "Either believe in our faction of this religion or be damned".

This is why Christianity, and basically all the Abrahamic religions, have become such an obstacle to peace and brotherly love.

The hostility belongs to these religions,. Not to me. I condemn no one.

But I do point out the fallacy of Johnny-come-lately Christian factions who look down their nose at all other factions of Christianity. That's the oxymoron that gives them away right there.

They prove themselves to be false in the very arrogance of their religious theology.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 15 by Pierac]



[center]
True belief is in the eye of the believer[/center]

____________

Question:

• 
  
  What does "true worship" mean?
  
  

____________

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word.

You went through a lot of effort.
Thanks for that.

You have your opinion, and you back it up with scripture, just the way that you are asked to do in the forum. That's really quite good.

I wonder, though, just how helpful this is.
Other kinds of Christians might have other kinds of opinions, and back those up with different scripture. Christians often dispute what the word of the "Lord and King" is, exactly. That's why there are theological debates, after all.

I think that the final word on what constitutes "a true worship" or a "true belief" goes to the worshiper. It does no good to project our thoughts on someone else.

Jesus plainly states, the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers.

Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't plainly state how. I think that he states we must get rid of all our worldly possessions. Most Christians don't. Are they all falsely worshiping?

I suppose that MOST Christians believe they worship "truly".
But not all Christians agree that other Christians do.

Now, you make a case that "true worship" means worshiping the "father".
That may tell us what god to worship, but again, not how.

Some people go on their knees, some pray, some sing to high heaven, some go to a church, some don't, some take the Eucharist, some don't, some confess their sins to a priest, some don't, some get dunked in water, some don't, some think that Jesus is a god, some don't, some handle snakes and some don't, some speak in tongues, and some don't, and so on, and so on.

Many of these different kinds of Christians, believe that they are truly worshiping.
You have your opinions, they have theirs.

It's so weird to an outsider like myself to notice so many Christians DEMAND that they know the one and only "truth" of their religion, and that all others are so darn WRONG about it.

Never ceases to amaze me.

I wonder if that condition has a name?

[Pierac]

[Replying to post 15 by Pierac]



[center]
True belief is in the eye of the believer[/center]

____________

Question:

• 
  
  What does "true worship" mean?
  
  

____________

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word.

You went through a lot of effort.
Thanks for that.

You have your opinion, and you back it up with scripture, just the way that you are asked to do in the forum. That's really quite good.

I wonder, though, just how helpful this is.
Other kinds of Christians might have other kinds of opinions, and back those up with different scripture. Christians often dispute what the word of the "Lord and King" is, exactly. That's why there are theological debates, after all.

I think that the final word on what constitutes "a true worship" or a "true belief" goes to the worshiper. It does no good to project our thoughts on someone else.

Jesus plainly states, the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers.

Unfortunately, Jesus doesn't plainly state how. I think that he states we must get rid of all our worldly possessions. Most Christians don't. Are they all falsely worshiping?

I suppose that MOST Christians believe they worship "truly".But not all Christians agree that other Christians do.

Now, you make a case that "true worship" means worshiping the "father".
That may tell us what god to worship, but again, not how.

Some people go on their knees, some pray, some sing to high heaven, some go to a church, some don't, some take the Eucharist, some don't, some confess their sins to a priest, some don't, some get dunked in water, some don't, some think that Jesus is a god, some don't, some handle snakes and some don't, some speak in tongues, and some don't, and so on, and so on.

Many of these different kinds of Christians, believe that they are truly worshiping.
You have your opinions, they have theirs.

It's so weird to an outsider like myself to notice so many Christians DEMAND that they know the one and only "truth" of their religion, and that all others are so darn WRONG about it.

Never ceases to amaze me.

I wonder if that condition has a name?

OMG! This has to be the best response I have ever had! You can read... sort of!

First off this not my opinion... it's my research!

Your statement... I suppose that MOST Christians believe they worship "truly".But not all Christians agree that other Christians do is exactly why I do as you say... You have your opinion, and you back it up with scripture, just the way that you are asked to do in the forum. That's really quite good I study all Christain beliefs... even those whom other Christian don't consider Christian.

My studies often prove according to scripture that those whom other Christian don't consider Christian's actually hold to biblical truth while the majority Christians whom disagree with them actually don't.

You make a point of saying I... "Now, you make a case that "true worship" means worshiping the "father". However, I do no such thing! Jesus does..... It's in my research you read.

You rightfully ask/state... That may tell us what god to worship, but again, not how.

I'm a seeker of the truth... I can easily expose false beliefs in many Christian organizations as I did in my post you so enjoyed... I exposed a false belief in my post... I never offered another belief to replace it!

Joh 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

If you know how to worship in spirit and truth... let me know!

I just exposed false beliefs about worship with in translations of our scriptures and Christian organizations. I gave you and them a rare gift. They asked for a true worshiper and I showed them.




Paul

[tam]

May you all have peace!

[Replying to post 20 by onewithhim]

Another mark of true religion is respect for God's Word. Jesus set this pattern by showing the highest respect for the Scriptures. He quoted them as the final authority on matters.

I am led by the Spirit to respond to this one point (at the moment), the underlining for emphasis is mine. This point is completely untrue.


For instance:


"You have heard it said, but I tell you now..."



"You have heard it said, 'eye for eye and tooth for tooth'. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."



Do you understand? Do you see?


Eye for eye and tooth for tooth is written in the Bible... but the WORD of GOD - who is Jaheshua, the Chosen One of Jah - said to 'turn the other cheek.'


HE was (and IS) the final authority. HIS word. HIS commands. HIS teachings.


Christ is the Word of God AND the final authority (except over His own Father, of course).



God did not say,

"Here is my son, my chosen one. Listen to the Bible."


God said (as is even written),

"Here is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to HIM."


Christ is my Master, the Teacher, the Truth, the Word of God, the King, the Light, the Holy Spirit and Holy One of God.


HE is the final authority (except over His own Father).




May those who wish them be given ears to hear and get a sense of this truth. May anyone who seeks and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."



Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Elijah John:

In your post #12 you accused JWs of not being able to demonstrate why we think we have the true religion. Well, I took you up on your challenge, and wrote extensively on the subject.

Would you comment on my posts #20 and #22 please? You asked for these comments.

.

[Elijah John]

Elijah John:

In your post #12 you accused JWs of not being able to demonstrate why we think we have the true religion. Well, I took you up on your challenge, and wrote extensively on the subject.

Would you comment on my posts #20 and #22 please? You asked for these comments.

.

That's not exactly what I said. I believe you have your reasons as why you THINK you have the true religion. But you can not demonstrate that you actually do.

I'll get to your posts sometime.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 25 by Pierac]




[center]
I really should count the number of times I have to write: Opinions ≠ Facts.[/center]

OMG! This has to be the best response I have ever had!

Thank you.
You are too kind.

First off this not my opinion... it's my research

Interesting choice of word.

You don't have an opinion, you say. You have "research", instead.

It seems to me that many people struggle with the meaning of "opinion" in here. Critical thinking helps us decide between "opinion and fact". Something that perhaps even Donald Trump might learn to become aware of in the next 4 years.

Your statement.. I suppose that MOST Christians believe they worship "truly".But not all Christians agree that other Christians do is exactly why I do as you say...

Good.

We agree that not all Christians have the same opinion about what any particular passage in the Bible means. There are theological opinions that differ.

You might agree with some, and disagree with some others.

____________

What we don't agree on is your claim to have the correct interpretation as to what the Bible means, and the people who disagree with you do not.

I am extremely skeptical of that claim ( if you not are making that claim.. correct me, please )
_____________

You have your opinion, and you back it up with scripture, just the way that you are asked to do in the forum. That's really quite good

I study all Christain beliefs... even those whom other Christian don't consider Christian.

Oh, so you don't have an opinion on which opinion is best?
Could you clarify?

My studies often prove according to scripture that those whom other Christian don't consider Christian's actually hold to biblical truth while the majority Christians whom disagree with them actually don't.

Proof is a very strong word.
It's usually only reserved for math.

But as long as you are convinced you have "proof", I suppose you have convinced yourself. However, it is also possible that other Christian's research might "prove" something else to them.

What about outsiders to the faith? We can also arrive at different conclusions using the same material. ( by using our own outsider kind of approach )

Perhaps you are under the misapprehension that your research is perfect, and that everyone else is just wrong. We get that a lot in here, you know. You aren't very special that way.

It seems to be a certain kind of "Christian" condition.

You make a point of saying I...

"Now, you make a case that "true worship" means worshiping the "father".

However, I do no such thing! Jesus does..... It's in my research you read.

Maybe you imagine that Jesus is making the case in front of us.

Just allow me to say for the record, that I'm very skeptical of that.
I think you are the one doing the research, and having conclusions.

I think that in here, you are the one who is trying to make a case, not Jesus.

You rightfully ask/state... That may tell us what god to worship, but again, not how.

Thank you.
I love to be right.

I'm a seeker of the truth... I can easily expose false beliefs in many Christian organizations as I did in my post you so enjoyed... I exposed a false belief in my post... I never offered another belief to replace it

I am quite happy for you that you seek the truth.
You might imagine that you are the only "truth seeker" in existence.

You aren't the only one in here who claims that goal and the ability to expose false beliefs. Many theists claim to have found the truth.. haven't they?

Let's say that I am very skeptical of their truth claims.
What makes your claims any different?

If you know how to worship in spirit and truth... let me know!

I can assure you, that I have no idea what "how to worship in spirit and truth" means. I quite frankly have the opinion that there is no such thing.

I'm not at all sure that anyone knows what "true worship" is.

What we have is lots of claims, like yours.
Some say this, some say that.

So, you disagree with this but maybe not that.
Big deal.

That's what all theologians do.
They are all opinions, not facts.

Not all of them proclaim to have the one and only truth, though.
When someone makes a fantastic claim like that, I become skeptical.

I think to myself this: "Oh, yeah?"

I just exposed false beliefs about worship with in translations of our scriptures and Christian organizations. I gave you and them a rare gift.

I am skeptical.

Your "truth" may just be a gift to mankind, if that truth is true for everyone and not just for yourself. And then again, it may not be such a gift. Maybe, after all, it's just true for you, and you have given yourself the gift of certainty.

I think that opinion can differ on that issue.

Of course, as an agnostic an atheist and a skeptic, I see both sides of any theological argument as ... "not demonstrated true yet".

I use the word "yet" because it's only been about 2000 years.
Evidence for the truth of your beliefs might come pouring in any time now.

They asked for a true worshiper and I showed them.

You showed us your opinion about it, and I'm quite sure that it's based on a lot of research.

Thanks for sharing, by the way.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 26 by tam]




[center]
EXTREMELY BAD ADVICE[/center]

"You have heard it said, 'eye for eye and tooth for tooth'. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

Do you understand? Do you see?

What I see, tam, what I understand, is Jesus reputedly giving extremely bad advice.
Apparently, good Christians should encourage terrorists to strike again.