Translation from the Greek

[mataeux]

If a Greek word is translated into English as "X" 37 times but as "Y" only one time, is that 'proof' of deception or just 'evidence'?

Interpretation of the verse using Y opens up a totally different meaning but still allows -barely- the sense of when using X. But using X instead of Y forcefully leads to one conclusion that goes against the preconceived ideas of the translator.

Would an unbiased translator naturally select a word and describe the sense of the word "by a usage not met with elsewhere"?

[cnorman18]

I agree, this has been an uncivil discussion of personal attacks from both participants.

I beg to differ. A shriek of outraged fury at being grossly insulted is not a personal attack.

Ok, but the discussion could have gone better than this.

Agreed, but it did not go south because of anything I did. If you think I should have been humbly apologetic or diplomatic or restrained when I was called a contemptible liar without warrant or provocation, I might have some rude things to say to you too.

[EduChris]

...the discussion could have gone better than this.

Guys, this whole thing went way beyond anything I intended or even imagined at the start. I was simply trying to reconcile what appeared to me to be irreconcilable claims. Cnorman18 has explained the matter satisfactorily to me--albeit at a cost that far exceeded any benefit, for which I am truly sorry and accept full blame. Cnorman18 and everyone else, please accept my apology and let's end the matter.

[cnorman18]

...the discussion could have gone better than this.

Guys, this whole thing went way beyond anything I intended or even imagined at the start. I was simply trying to reconcile what appeared to me to be irreconcilable claims. Cnorman18 has explained the matter satisfactorily to me--albeit at a cost that far exceeded any benefit, for which I am truly sorry and accept full blame. Cnorman18 and everyone else, please accept my apology and let's end the matter.

That works for me. I appreciate and accept your apology, and consider the matter closed with no hard feelings. I don't normally have much of a temper, and I cool off instantly. Even my ex would agree with that. We worship the same God, neither of us is perfect, and that same God knows that I've had to apologize for and retract hasty or ill-considered words on this forum many more times than once. I can't claim any superiority in moral or intellectual terms or any others. I offer my hand in friendship, forgiveness and brotherhood, and I say let's let it go.

Now we can go on to rip each other new ones on the issues we disagree about... but with civility and cordiality as we go after each other's ideas.

I retract that string of hyphens, too, by the way.

[EduChris]

...I offer my hand in friendship, forgiveness and brotherhood, and I say let's let it go...

Agreed and reciprocated.

[icon hugging, in case any reader has their "emoticons" disabled]

[cnorman18]

...I offer my hand in friendship, forgiveness and brotherhood, and I say let's let it go...

Agreed and reciprocated.

[icon hugging, in case any reader has their "emoticons" disabled]

Okay, let's not get all mushy now... I save that sort of thing for my Lynell.

[WinePusher]

This place is pretty much dominated by Liberals, from liberal christians to liberal atheists to political liberals.

We're off topic and need to stop, but pertaining to to christians I find that assertion almost incomprehensible, reflecting a coulteresque liberals-under-every-bed seige attitude. Most of the christians here are clearly conservative, and tend toward ultra-orthodoxy, biblicism, and fundamentalism. And most of the debates reflect that. I can't name more than a handful of liberals, even moderates. Dominated?!?

Hm...Well I'll list my subjective assertions and allow for people to come in and correct them, no offence intented to any of these people. I respect you all.

I consider Rhonan a liberal christian
I consider you to be a liberal christian (as you assert yourself to be so)
I consider ChaosBorders a liberal christian
I consider micatala a liberal christian

Can you prove your assertion? Maybe start another thread and name names.

I don't know if that is aganist the rules of not......

Maybe an enemies list to send to the tea party for future eradication?

If you say so

You are welcome to put me first on the list. I'm way wicked liberal theologically. I don't know what liberal atheist is BTW.

Ok, you're on. A liberal atheist is simply an atheist who is liberal.

[mataeux]

Strong's G1344 at ROMANS 6:7

I don't think "Justified" allows the sense of 'being loosed from dominion of' or "freed".

Why use "freed" when the Lexicon clearly supports "justified" or "absolved" or "acquitted" or "declared guiltless"?

When I see "Justified 37" and "Freed 1" it makes me investigate further. Then reading in the lexicon "... by a usage not met with elsewhere ..." leads me to think "freed" is incorrect and the result of bias or deception...

There is no "bias" or "deception" here; the problem is that you are not using the most comprehensive Greek lexicon, BDAG, which gives "make free" as a valid meaning for the Greek verb dikaiow.

The immediate context in the preceding verse talks about our being slaves to sin, and so this next verse is talking about the opposite of being held in slavery--in other words, being made free from the power of sin.

The Revised English Bible gives a particularly nice translation of the verse: "...death cancels the claims of sin."

Please cite other instances where "δεδικαίωται" takes on the meaning "set loose from the power of." (really, in any literature)

The immediiate context is not important in this case because it is not an idiom or figure-of-speech. Perhaps Paul ACTUALLY meant to state that when you die, your debt is paid in full and no punishment is due.

I could go on to comment how that idea is supported scripturally but doing so would overstep the bounds of the topic and so clutter the discussion AND the forum that observers would be disheartened.

[mataeux]

I am far from a Greek scholar, but I understand that “freed� is at least a possible translation in this verse.

If only one translation put in the word “freed� while most others used a word like “justified" or "acquitted� or something else then it might be possible that there was some deception or bias involved.

However, as it stands every translation I have seen – from King James to NIV to NRS and several others – all use the word “freed.� Because it has been translated this way by so many experts spanning such a long time period it is not reasonably to say that deception or bias was involved. Such a claim would require saying that the translators of King James Bible in the early 1600’s and the translators NIV in the mid 1960’s were all in on the deception.

You might be able to argue that there is a better translation than “freed� in this case, but even that would require arguing against the vast majority of Greek experts in the world today.

Also if we say “anyone who has died has been freed from sin� or we say, “anyone who has died has been acquitted from sin,� what difference does it make? I recognize that there is a technical difference, but the essential essence of the sentence seems pretty much the same.

ESV RVR ASV DBY & KJ3 use "Justified"

I became a Greek expert when I undertook to find an instance of the word "δικαιόω" in the sense of "set free from the power of". Besides ROM6:7, there are none.

Thus "Justified" wins.

Now, all the commentaries ever written of ROM6:7 speak of 'being free from the power of' which is QUITE different from 'being acquitted of' and 'no further punishment is due.'

The nature of this deception is as biblical as you dared to suppose.

Rest and let the reader decide.

[EduChris]

...Please cite other instances where "δεδικαίωται" takes on the meaning "set loose from the power of." (really, in any literature)...there are none...

Acts 13: 38-39 in the RSV, NCV, NRSV, CSV, NASB, and ESV

...I became a Greek expert when I...

You can't become a Greek expert unless you first learn Greek--which clearly you haven't done.

[mataeux]

...Please cite other instances where "δεδικαίωται" takes on the meaning "set loose from the power of." (really, in any literature)...there are none...

Acts 13: 38-39 in the RSV, NCV, NRSV, CSV, NASB, and ESV

...I became a Greek expert when I...

You can't become a Greek expert unless you first learn Greek--which clearly you haven't done.

at ACTS 13:39 KJ21 KJ3 KJV NKJV NLT NIV ESV(footnote) RVR ASV YNG DBY WEB HNV all give the sense of 'being declared guiltless', not 'loosed from the dominion of.'

I claim to be a Greek expert specializing in the word "δίκαιος." Please search the thousands of references HERE or find in THESE anywhere this word gives the sense of 'freed from the power of'!

Why is it that only bible translators in the past 60 years have begun to use this word falsely at ACTS 13:39? To show support for their false usage at ROM 6:7? I don't know.

I rest. I will let stand your reply- as wordy and rhetorical as it may be.