How do you explain John 10:30

[Miles]

In Luke 23:34 Jesus is quoted as saying, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

So it is quite clear that Jesus and his father (god, I presume) are two distinct entities: one talking to the other. Yet in John 10:30 we read, "- Jesus answered them, 'I and My Father are one.' �

So, just how can any entity be the father of himself?

[Miles]

In the Greek text of John 10:30, Jesus' words are recorded as: ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴ� ἕν ἐσμεν (literally: I and the father one are). The Greek term ὁ πατὴ� (ho pateyr, the father) refers, in Christian terms, to the name of the supreme God in Judaism (YHVH, or YaHWeH) and Judaism-influenced Christianity (YeHoVaH [incorrectly voweled in the 16th century with the vowels of aDoNaY] [LORD]; aka Jehovah).

Also in John 10:30, the Greek phrase ἕν ἐσμεν (hen esmen, one are) is defined, in non-Trinitarian terms, as one in essence and points to two different and distinct personalities.

Had the Greek word for "one person" been meant in John 10:30, the word ἕις (heis, numerically one) should appear in the place of ἕν hen. It doesn't; ergo, Jesus and the spiritual entity believed to be his "Father" are not, by definition, the same and identical character.

If the majority of Christians wants to go along with this assement and declare that Jesus and his father are not one, as indicated in John 10:30, then I will defer to this reinterpretation of their belief and withdraw the verse as evidence for such oneness.

[InTheFlesh]

So, I and the Father are one means they are not one?
Talk about private interpretation.

John.1
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John.1
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Gen.1
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[InTheFlesh]

And don't forget about the following verse which explains it.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So who else helped God create man?

[Miles]

And don't forget about the following verse which explains it.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

• " 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
  
  27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Unless Gen. 1:26 is a fabrication, it seems the writer of Gen. 1:27 is simply assigning all the credit to god, where in truth others helped him. Or maybe Gen. 1:27 is the fabrication.

So who else helped God create man?

Now that's up to your theologians or your street corner preachers to tell you. As I said, I've always been told it was angels.

[JBlack]

I've always been told that God was talking to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.

1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I've always been told that "the Wod" = Jesus. So therefore, In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

Don't know if that's how most christians interpret it, but that's always been my understanding.

[JoshC]

The Bible has many accounts of Jesus praying and talking to God,

Matthew 27:46 "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".

Suggesting Jesus sees them as seperate. Unless he is Questioning his own judgement, however that would suggest he and God are one, and the Christian God cannot have poor judgement because he is, afterall, "perfect".

Christians will say that when Jesus says "I and My Father are one." he means that God is within him and they hold the same values.

However "The Trinity" then holds no value.

The words of the Bible can be used to support whatever you want, that is why theists are impossible to argue against.

[Goat]

I've always been told that God was talking to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.

1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I've always been told that "the Wod" = Jesus. So therefore, In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.

Don't know if that's how most christians interpret it, but that's always been my understanding.

That is how Christians interpret it. . going through the filter of the interpretation to justify the Trinity. However. if you look at it from a historical point of view, and look at the various phiolophies in the late first and early second century, it could very well be the concept of Logos that Philo of Alexandra came up with when he fused the Greek concept with Jewish concepts. "Logos" to Philo was 'the wisdom of god', and he looked at it as an intermediary between people and god.

[InTheFlesh]

And don't forget about the following verse which explains it.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

• " 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
  
  27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Unless Gen. 1:26 is a fabrication, it seems the writer of Gen. 1:27 is simply assigning all the credit to god, where in truth others helped him. Or maybe Gen. 1:27 is the fabrication.

In these verses, Let us = God
and you can't see the link to John 10:30?
And you don't make the link to Jesus
claiming to be the Father?
How can the Father be God
The Holy Spirit be God
The Son be God
if there's only ONE GOD?

So who else helped God create man?

Now that's up to your theologians or your street corner preachers to tell you. As I said, I've always been told it was angels.

Did you hear that on the street?
It sounds like you don't know.
I'll give you a hint. NO ONE!

Do you have any doctrine to support your theories
or does your depth end with "maybe its fabrication"?
I think you posted in the wrong forum.

[Miles]

In these verses, Let us = God and you can't see the link to John 10:30?
And you don't make the link to Jesus claiming to be the Father? How can the Father be God The Holy Spirit be God The Son be Godif there's only ONE GOD?

Exactly! But why should anyone think "Let us" = God? Is this how you talk when taking on a project: to yourself and in the first person plural?

InTheFlesh standing alone in the kitchen: "Let us (myself) do the dishes."

Did you hear that on the street?
It sounds like you don't know.
I'll give you a hint. NO ONE!

It was a metaphor for all preachers. And, I have heard preachers--well, one preacher anyway---say it was angels. (and don't you think it's a bit rash and rather silly to claim, "NO ONE"?)

Do you have any doctrine to support your theories

What "theories"? All I've done is tell people what I've heard, and pose a problem using a text that many say is inerrant, and using a normal interpretation of the words. Now if you want to contend that these words don't mean what they say then it's incumbent upon you to prove why not, and merely asserting so just to resolve the difficulty isn't going to do it. Not by a long shot.

or does your depth end with "maybe its fabrication"?
I think you posted in the wrong forum.

Hey, I was only offering up an option to explain your problem. Don't want it? Don't take it.

[MagusYanam]

To be honest, it really doesn't sound that strange to me on this level. 'Let's (= 'let us') see about this' or 'let's clean the dishes' sounds like something my parents would say, even if they were just talking to themselves with no one around (or so they thought). Again, I'm not sure why this is such a big issue.

I think there may be interesting interpretations to be made using the original Hebrew and I'm sure there are various and sundry commentaries explaining the use of the first-person plural in Genesis, but I'm afraid I don't know of any off the top of my head.