Is it selfish to believe in a personal God?

[discus70]

Is it egotistical and selfish to believe in a personal God?

If not, then why ( in the case of Christianity ) is heaven only granted to specific people and not everyone?

If God created all things wouldn't he want all of his creation to have eternal life in heaven?

[Amos]

We all have the ability to make our petitions known to God with prayer through Christ our Lord.

And the response from God is absolutely indistinguishable from random chance.

That's the way God's providence works as far as I can tell. What may appear to be random chance just so happens to get things done that God wants done, like with Pharaoh being in power in Exodus, Esther being in the position she was in, the fullness of time when Jesus lived on this earth, etc. God could be using you right now; not controlling you but using you as you are to serve His purposes. Who's to say?

Maybe, maybe not. I see no reason why those who believe in God have any confidence in their belief, do you?

How is it that prayer is said to be the ability to make our petitions known to God when most Christians claim that God is already all knowing. It looks to me that some Christians do not understand the purpose or the efficacy of prayer. You are making your petitions known to someone who you believe already knows them, with the promise of a response which is indistinguishable from no response at all.

What am I missing?

I see lots of reasons to confidently believe in God, but this isn’t the apologetics subforum.

Philippians 4:6-7 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Matthew 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

Luke 18:1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart,

Do we provide information to God when we pray? No. But we have been commanded to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17). It is for our benefit, not God’s. It seems to me that God wants us to figure out what is important in this life, and prayer helps in that process. I have already cited James 4:3 which says we are wasting our time if we are praying for our pleasures.

God doesn’t have to work miracles to answer prayers. If what one has asked for comes to pass, that’s a response. No response at all is also a response.

[McCulloch]

I see lots of reasons to confidently believe in God, but this isn’t the apologetics subforum.

You are right. I sometimes lose track.

Philippians 4:6-7 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

So, within the context of Christian theology and dogma, how can anyone let their request be made known to God, when God already knows.

Matthew 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

I have no problem with the idea that Jesus and Paul contradict each other. But I suspect that you do.

Do we provide information to God when we pray? No.

So it is Paul who's words do not mean what they seem to mean.

But we have been commanded to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17). It is for our benefit, not God’s.

I once knew an elder who, I think, took this one literally. It was for no one's benefit. :yapyap:

It seems to me that God wants us to figure out what is important in this life, and prayer helps in that process.

Then we are not making our requests be made known to God, are we? Prayer, in your view, becomes a form of meditation rather than a communication to God.

I have already cited James 4:3 which says we are wasting our time if we are praying for our pleasures.

Agreed, but I fail to see the relevance.

God doesn’t have to work miracles to answer prayers. If what one has asked for comes to pass, that’s a response. No response at all is also a response.

As I said, God's response to prayer is completely indistinguishable from random chance. For quite a different picture see James 5.

Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

[Amos]

Philippians 4:6-7 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

So, within the context of Christian theology and dogma, how can anyone let their request be made known to God, when God already knows.

Matthew 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

I have no problem with the idea that Jesus and Paul contradict each other. But I suspect that you do.

Do we provide information to God when we pray? No.

So it is Paul who's words do not mean what they seem to mean.

I have no problem because there is no contradiction. God doesn’t need to be told what we need, but He has commanded us to come to Him with our petitions. That’s why I put those passages together. You cannot honestly read the writings of Paul and come to the conclusion that in this passage he is teaching that God is being enlightened by our prayers.

But we have been commanded to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17). It is for our benefit, not God’s.

I once knew an elder who, I think, took this one literally. It was for no one's benefit. :yapyap:

Did he advocate plucking out eyes and cutting off hands, too?

It seems to me that God wants us to figure out what is important in this life, and prayer helps in that process.

Then we are not making our requests be made known to God, are we? Prayer, in your view, becomes a form of meditation rather than a communication to God.

I have already cited James 4:3 which says we are wasting our time if we are praying for our pleasures.

Agreed, but I fail to see the relevance.

No, in prayer we are making our requests known to God in obedience to His command. He doesn’t need for us to tell Him, but He has told us to tell Him. See the passages I cited. Prayer is not meditation, but in order for us to pray as we ought, we must consider the things about which we intend to pray because we can ask amiss (James 4:3). That’s the point I was trying to get across.

God doesn’t have to work miracles to answer prayers. If what one has asked for comes to pass, that’s a response. No response at all is also a response.

As I said, God's response to prayer is completely indistinguishable from random chance. For quite a different picture see James 5.

Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

As I said, that’s how providence works. It looks like chance, but it’s not. God doesn’t have to work miracles to answer prayers. Nothing in the passage from James says any different. Back up to verse 13. James says pray when you are distressed. Sing when you’re happy. Pray for the physically sick. Pray for the spiritually sick. Then he gives an example of the efficacy of prayer. James says prayer works. That’s what I believe.

[McCulloch]

God doesn’t need to be told what we need, but He has commanded us to come to Him with our petitions.

You are not reading very carefully. The command is to make our needs known to God.

As I said, that’s how providence works. It looks like chance, but it’s not.

It certainly does look like chance. How is it that you know that it is not chance?

Then he gives an example of the efficacy of prayer. James says prayer works. That’s what I believe.

Prayer works according to you. Yet the response to a prayer is indistinguishable from chance, you are asking the divine entity for what he already knows you want, he's going to do according to his will anyway.

What exactly does prayer works mean? My brother-in-law claims to work too, but I've never seen any evidence of him working either.

[Amos]

God doesn’t need to be told what we need, but He has commanded us to come to Him with our petitions.

You are not reading very carefully. The command is to make our needs known to God.

You are not reading carefully. I have explained this already. Again, based on Paul’s writings found in the NT, do you believe that he thought God was not omniscient? You are misinterpreting the passage from Philippians (intentionally, I believe).

As I said, that’s how providence works. It looks like chance, but it’s not.

It certainly does look like chance. How is it that you know that it is not chance?

How is it that you know that it is not God?

Then he gives an example of the efficacy of prayer. James says prayer works. That’s what I believe.

Prayer works according to you. Yet the response to a prayer is indistinguishable from chance, you are asking the divine entity for what he already knows you want, he's going to do according to his will anyway.

What exactly does prayer works mean? My brother-in-law claims to work too, but I've never seen any evidence of him working either.

Prayer works according to the Scriptures, which are regarded as authoritative in this subforum. You yourself cited one of the Scriptures that shows that prayer avails much. You have sustained my argument for me. Thank you.

[McCulloch]

God doesn’t need to be told what we need, but He has commanded us to come to Him with our petitions.

You are not reading very carefully. The command is to make our needs known to God.

You are not reading carefully. I have explained this already. Again, based on Paul’s writings found in the NT, do you believe that he thought God was not omniscient? You are misinterpreting the passage from Philippians (intentionally, I believe).

Not at all. I am just reading it simply and without theological glasses on. If you were writing about anyone else but God, the phrase make your needs known to someone implies that the person you are commanded to make your needs known to, does not already know what your needs are. If you are doing something else, such as reminding yourself of those needs, a different phrase would be used.
I cannot prove a negative. Is there anything in Paul's writing which indicates that he believed in an omniscient God?

As I said, that’s how providence works. It looks like chance, but it’s not.

It certainly does look like chance. How is it that you know that it is not chance?

How is it that you know that it is not God?

I don't. It could be that God puts each snowflake together individually. But in applying Occam's Razor, one should not postulate the existence of a God to explain phenomena that could just as well be explained by chance.

Then he gives an example of the efficacy of prayer. James says prayer works. That’s what I believe.

Prayer works according to you. Yet the response to a prayer is indistinguishable from chance, you are asking the divine entity for what he already knows you want, he's going to do according to his will anyway.

What exactly does prayer works mean? My brother-in-law claims to work too, but I've never seen any evidence of him working either.

Prayer works according to the Scriptures, which are regarded as authoritative in this subforum. You yourself cited one of the Scriptures that shows that prayer avails much. You have sustained my argument for me. Thank you.

You are correct. According to the Christian scriptures, prayer works. We agree. I still have no idea what that means. So far, it seems that your God wants you to tell him what you think you need and he may or may not grant your request depending on his will.

Beyond that, we should have a debate in Christianity and Apologetics on the efficacy of prayer.

[Amos]

God doesn’t need to be told what we need, but He has commanded us to come to Him with our petitions.

You are not reading very carefully. The command is to make our needs known to God.

You are not reading carefully. I have explained this already. Again, based on Paul’s writings found in the NT, do you believe that he thought God was not omniscient? You are misinterpreting the passage from Philippians (intentionally, I believe).

Not at all. I am just reading it simply and without theological glasses on. If you were writing about anyone else but God, the phrase make your needs known to someone implies that the person you are commanded to make your needs known to, does not already know what your needs are. If you are doing something else, such as reminding yourself of those needs, a different phrase would be used.
I cannot prove a negative. Is there anything in Paul's writing which indicates that he believed in an omniscient God?

You are reading it simply alright, ignoring the author’s beliefs (which you know, unless I am giving you more credit than you deserve), insisting that there is no other possible sense to the phrase in question that agrees with the rest of what Paul and the NT teach. It doesn’t suit your purposes to treat the passage fairly. Did you agree with that elder you knew who took the command to pray without ceasing literally? Based on your argumentation about the passage from Philippians, I must conclude that you did.

As I said, that’s how providence works. It looks like chance, but it’s not.

It certainly does look like chance. How is it that you know that it is not chance?

How is it that you know that it is not God?

I don't. It could be that God puts each snowflake together individually. But in applying Occam's Razor, one should not postulate the existence of a God to explain phenomena that could just as well be explained by chance.

This discussion doesn’t really have anything to do with proving whether or not God exists. My receiving what I have prayed for doesn’t confirm the existence of God any more than my not receiving what I have prayed for denies the existence of God.

Then he gives an example of the efficacy of prayer. James says prayer works. That’s what I believe.

Prayer works according to you. Yet the response to a prayer is indistinguishable from chance, you are asking the divine entity for what he already knows you want, he's going to do according to his will anyway.
What exactly does prayer works mean? My brother-in-law claims to work too, but I've never seen any evidence of him working either.

Prayer works according to the Scriptures, which are regarded as authoritative in this subforum. You yourself cited one of the Scriptures that shows that prayer avails much. You have sustained my argument for me. Thank you.

You are correct. According to the Christian scriptures, prayer works. We agree. I still have no idea what that means. So far, it seems that your God wants you to tell him what you think you need and he may or may not grant your request depending on his will.
Beyond that, we should have a debate in Christianity and Apologetics on the efficacy of prayer.

It’s good that we can agree on something.

[McCulloch]

Is there anything in Paul's writing which indicates that he believed in an omniscient God?

You are reading it simply alright, ignoring the author’s beliefs, insisting that there is no other possible sense to the phrase in question that agrees with the rest of what Paul and the NT teach. It doesn’t suit your purposes to treat the passage fairly.

I don't assume that Paul agrees with the other writers of the NT. Is there any evidence that would indicate that Paul believed in an omniscient God? I cannot think of any, off hand, but I would not be surprised if there were.

This discussion doesn’t really have anything to do with proving whether or not God exists. My receiving what I have prayed for doesn’t confirm the existence of God any more than my not receiving what I have prayed for denies the existence of God.

Yes, but surely the same process applies. If you get what you ask for, it affirms the efficacy of prayer. But if you don't, it does not?

[Amos]

Is there anything in Paul's writing which indicates that he believed in an omniscient God?

You are reading it simply alright, ignoring the author’s beliefs, insisting that there is no other possible sense to the phrase in question that agrees with the rest of what Paul and the NT teach. It doesn’t suit your purposes to treat the passage fairly.

I don't assume that Paul agrees with the other writers of the NT. Is there any evidence that would indicate that Paul believed in an omniscient God? I cannot think of any, off hand, but I would not be surprised if there were.

2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:23, Romans 2:6, Hebrews 4:13, etc.

This discussion doesn’t really have anything to do with proving whether or not God exists. My receiving what I have prayed for doesn’t confirm the existence of God any more than my not receiving what I have prayed for denies the existence of God.

Yes, but surely the same process applies. If you get what you ask for, it affirms the efficacy of prayer. But if you don't, it does not?

Not getting what I ask for just means God says no.

[McCulloch]

Is there anything in Paul's writing which indicates that he believed in an omniscient God?

2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:23, Romans 2:6, Hebrews 4:13, etc.

Thanks. That wasn't too hard was it?
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
I don't see omniscience here. Paul claims that God will know each person and will judge them.

Romans 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
You might want to check your reference. This has nothing to do with omniscience.

Romans 2:5-7
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.
I hope you will forgive me for including a bit of context. No claim to omniscience here. Paul again claims that God will know each person and each person's deeds.

Hebrews 4:13
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
A little better. Who wrote Hebrews?

OK, maybe it was too hard.

Not getting what I ask for just means God says no.

In other words, I have an invisible friend who can give me anything I ask for. If I ask for something and I get it, he gave it to me. If I ask for something and don't get it, he said no. I cannot predict when he will say yes and when he will say no.