Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[JehovahsWitness]

Proof # 6

Jesus is EVERLASTING

Micah 5:2 The prophet is speaking of Jesus whose goings forth are from old, from EVERLASTING.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.[/b]

The Hebrew word here rendered “everlasting,” is olám and it simply means an indefinite period of time. It basically means where "the end cannot be seen", this can of course mean you cannot see the end because there is no end (it's "infinite") OR because the point is obscure or has not been revealed. Thus in some cases (depending on the context) the word can be refering to something that is simply long-lasting rather than or infinite or even unending

This is reflected in the fact that the LXX the Hebrew olam is mostly translated the Hebrew "olam" as aon or (sometimes) aionios. The Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott shows that this equivalent Greek word aion meant "a period of existence", such as "life-time", "life", "an age", "generation", "posterity" (ho mellon aion), "a long space of time", "of old", "for ages" (ap aionos), "a definite space of time", "an era", "epoch", "age", "period", and so on. For more on this point see tiggers post : viewtopic.php?p=1112735#p1112735

So MICAH here is saying the promised Messiah came from OLAM ie an undefined moment in the distant past. Not that he had no beginning.








JW

[JehovahsWitness]

CAN AN INFINITE GOD HAVE AN ORIGIN

More to the point is the fact that Micah reveals that the Promised Messiah "came forth". Obviously this was not refering simply to his birth in the first century, since that could not possibly qualify as "an indefinite [OLAM] time in the distant past. Yet if it is speaking of the LOGOS as we can reasonably conclude, the verse is inndicating that one had an origin

ORIGIN

The point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived

MICAH 5:2 -Jerusalem Bible

"But you (Bethlehem) Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, from you will come for me a future ruler of Israel whose origins [YATZA] go back to the distant past, to the days of old."

*The Hebrew word YATSA translated into the English "origins" has a wide variety of meanings but many bible scholars render it as "origin" (see point [g] in the word study) at Micah 5:2


VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS
https://biblehub.com/micah/5-2.htm[/list]

New International Version
“... whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

New Living Translation
...whose origins are in the distant past, will come from you on my behalf.

Berean Standard Bible
... One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.

Christian Standard Bible
... His origin is from antiquity, from ancient times.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
...His origin is from antiquity, from eternity

GOD'S WORD® Translation
.... His origins go back to the distant past, to days long ago

Majority Standard Bible
...One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.

New American Bible
...Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times.

NET Bible
... one whose origins are in the distant past.

New Revised Standard Version
... whose origin is from of old, from ancient days

CONCLUSION The prophecy must have been refering to the Messiahs "origins" actually being far in the distant past, long before he was born as a human (compare John 8:58). Even if Jesus' origins were long before the creation of the universe, they are still origins which means he had a beginning (Compare John 1:1 a)









JW

Word study
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3318.htm


RELATED POSTS

Scriptural reasons to conclude Jesus is not Almighty God
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p751572

Scriptural index : http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... index.html

[onewithhim]

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YHWH = Jesus

Proof # 6

Jesus is EVERLASTING

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that there never was a time when the LOGOS did not exist.

Micah 5:2 The prophet is speaking of Jesus whose goings forth are from old, from EVERLASTING.

Micah would disagree with Watchtower Witnesses who say Jesus, the Messiah had a beginning.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.

I don't think that you really read other people's posts. For one, I pointed out to you that you misquoted John 8:24, leaving off the word "he," yet you still have the misquoted verse on your page.

"Everlasting" can have the meaning of "long ago," and not "forever." I think JehovahsWitness has brought this out. The Scriptures say that Jesus was "the beginning of the creation by God," and "the firstborn of all creation." (Revelation 1:1; 3:14; Colossians 1:15) Thus the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) was God's first creation. Jesus pointed out in his own words: "I live because of the Father." This meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father. (John 6:56,57) You argue and yet you ignore the posts that I and other people have provided here with certification that Jesus is not God. Try responding, for example, to my posts.

What do you think that "only-begotten" means? (John 3:16) Jesus was begotten, or, his life is the result of being caused by someone. That is what "begotten" means. Jesus had a beginning, and he was the only being that was created by the Father (YHWH) alone. All other things were created by Jesus. The dictionary says: "Begotten" is the "alternative past participle of 'beget.'" Beget = "To procreate; be the father of; to cause to be." Very clearly, according to verses like John 3:16, YHWH caused Jesus to be.

[JehovahsWitness]

Proof # 6

Jesus is EVERLASTING

Micah 5:2 The prophet is speaking of Jesus whose goings forth are from old, from EVERLASTING

EXPLAINED : Does Micah 5:2 mean Jesus had not beginning ?( post #181)
viewtopic.php?p=1112696#p1112696

[MissKate13]

WRONG!

The pronoun “he” has been added by translators in John 8:24. The Kingdom Interlinear clearly shows “he” is not in the original Greek language. Strong’s Interlinear shows the same.

24 εἶπον I saidοὖν thereforeὑμῖν to YOUὅτι thatἀποθανεῖσθε YOU will dieἐν inταῖς theἁμαρτίαις sinsὑμῶν· of YOU;ἐὰν if everγὰρ forμὴ notπιστεύσητε YOU should believeὅτι thatἐγώ Iεἰμι, am,ἀποθανεῖσθε YOU will dieἐν inταῖς theἁμαρτίαις sinsὑμῶν. of YOU.

[MissKate13]

It’s quite laughable how Watchtower Witnesses will say YHWH is everlasting, but Jesus is not.

Micah 5:2 blows that false teaching right out of the water.

The Hebrew word is “owlam.” It is used to describe YHWH.

Isaiah 40:28
28Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.

[2timothy316]

So here's a question.

What is The Father's name? Or Is Jesus the Father too?

[tigger 2]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #186]

The word owlam has more than one meaning. According to Strong’s one of the meanings is “ancient” and is used at 6 different verses in the KJV. The NASB, however has translated it as “ancient” 16 times.

Among those trinitarian-translated Bibles which render Micah 5:2 with “ancient times” (or its equivalent) rather than “everlasting” (or its equivalent) are RSV, NRSV, NIV, NEB, REB, NAB, JB, NJB, ESV, GW, NCV, etc.

[MissKate13]

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58).

“I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).

“Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

Jesus Christ was the physical, visible manifestation of the living, invisible God. Jesus, the Son of God. The very Word of God.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(John 1:1)

[tigger 2]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #189]


Post by MissKate13 » Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:19 pm [Links to my personal studies in brackets]

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58).
[http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... art-1.html]

“I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
[http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... -1030.html]

“Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).
[http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... ather.html]

Jesus Christ was the physical, visible manifestation of the living, invisible God. Jesus, the Son of God. The very Word of God.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(John 1:1)
[http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... er_21.html]