"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

[Miles]

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To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source

A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)

....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves"

It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

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[nobspeople]

I reading through many of these posts, there seems to be a lot of 'rules' or 'guidelines' for being a JW. I don't recall having this with any other religion I've been a part of. I find this highly strange.

Are any other religions outside of scientology like this?

There are less rules for JWs than there are for Catholics, for example. Catholic doctrine teaches that people can't get a divorce, yet if you do they turn a blind eye, esp. if you pay them enough money. JWs know that the innocent party CAN divorce a cheating mate and they will suffer no consequences. That is just one example. If you really looked into it, JWs are the least hung up on rules. Their concern is for members to show respect for Jehovah and Jesus and be true to their vow, not doing things contrary to Jesus' teachings.

As I'm not a JW expert by any means (and never will be), I have to take your word for it, for what it's worth. But, from what I've seen, JWs have a ton of rules - and a good many violators of said rules. That's not to say, however, that other religions and cult don't have similar or more rules. Surely JWs don't hold the world record for the amount of rules - at least I wouldn't think so.
That said, if the rules are repercussions for breaking them are known before 'joining' a group and they're broken, the person crying foul has little ground to stand on, IMO.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

I suppose I should respond also to the OP if I am going to comment on this thread, yeah?

A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."

Yeah, that is kind of completely missing the point.

The verses below are not saying that WE (who are in Christ) should turn against our loved ones or shun them, even if they do not accept Christ or God.

So what? Most verses in the Bible don't; however, the Jehovah's Witness organization does so when it disfellowships a member.

"Thus "disfellowshiping" is what Jehovah's Witness appropriately call the expelling and subsequent shunning of such an unrepentant wrongdoer."
Watchtower 1981 Sep 15 p.22

We are to love others, even our enemies (bless those who curse us, forgive and be forgiven, do good to those who persecute you, etc), and we are not to turn away from our own flesh and blood (Isaiah 58:7) Even if they turn against US or cast us out.[

Sure you are if they've been disfellowshiped. See quote above and the Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry(1972) statement at the end of the post.

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Consider the real application of those words two thousand years ago (though it is the same today): the religion being practiced by the Jews did not accept Jaheshua as the Messiah. So in households, daughters were going to turn against mothers, fathers against sons, etc... NOT because the people following Christ would shun their loved ones and treat them as though they were dead - but because those who did not accept Christ would turn against those who did accept Christ. (and none of this had ANYTHING to do with committing a sin such as fornication or whatever)

Look at the example in John 9:

They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14 Now the day on which [Jesus] had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath. 15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

17 Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”

The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

18 They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents. 19 “Is this your son?” they asked. “Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?”

20 “We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. 21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23 That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God by telling the truth,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”

25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”

30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.

Doesn't really matter what the Bible says as long as the JW organization says that disfellowshiped members are to be expelled and shunned, now does it.

"Thus "disfellowshiping" is what Jehovah's Witness appropriately call the expelling and subsequent shunning of such an unrepentant wrongdoer."
Watchtower 1981 Sep 15 p.22

Moreover, "A person that becomes inactive from the congregation or fades out, is still expected to be shunned if they do not abide by Watchtower doctrine, even if not disfellowshipped. This was discussed in the 2016 Regional Convention.

"Loyal Christians would not associate with “anyone called a brother” [i.e. they should be shunned] who is practicing serious sin. This is true even if no congregation action has been taken, as may be the case with an inactive ones (w85 7/15 19 14)"


And consider those members who come to reject the JW fold. They would have been better off never having heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, that is, if they wanted the friendship of a JW.

(5) Disassociation is generally used for a Witness that voluntarily removes themselves from the congregation. For the sake of this article, disfellowshipping and disassociation will be considered the same, as the implications to the individual are almost identical, in both cases leading to shunning. Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry (1972) states;

"The term disassociation applies to the action taken by a person who, although being a baptized member of the congregation, deliberately repudiates Christian standing, rejecting the congregation and stating that he no longer wants to be recognized or known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. … Also, a person might renounce his place in the Christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of a secular organization the objective of which is contrary to the Bible and, hence, is under judgment by Jehovah God. (Compare Revelation 19:17-21; Isaiah 2:4.) So if a person who is a Christian chooses to join those who are disapproved by God, it would be fitting for the congregation to acknowledge by a brief announcement that he has disassociated himself and is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Such a person would be viewed in the same way as a disfellowshipped person." [i.e. expelled and shunned]

source

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Thank you for all those quotes from their own literature, since they speak to the matter of inactive ones as well as disassociated ones.

My point was just to hold up the speakers words to the Light (Christ), test all things against the truth (Christ) and also against love (since there is no law against love, and God is Himself love). Even in context, the speaker missed the point. He used those words (household members turning against other household members) to justify shunning, but that was not the meaning, and it had nothing to do with 'sinning'.


Peace again to you!

[We_Are_VENOM]

May I remind you this is a debating forum, not a video posting platform.

Is it a platform where I can use a video to prove a point while debating?

Do feel unable to post in full sentences what your point is?

Well, since you refuse to watch the video (which kinda ties in to this entire discussion on JW's refusing to read or watch anything besides stuff that has been funneled through the "proper" organziational channels)....let me lay some ice on you.

So, are JW's allowed to be independent thinkers, that is; THINK FOR THEMSELVES?


The Watchtower, 1/15/1983, page 27, “Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits”

19 As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: “This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe.” This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous? 20 Such thinking is an evidence of pride. And the Bible says: “Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.” (Proverbs 16:18)

If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: “Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God’s organization?” No, we cannot!

The arrogance, the nerve, the AUDACITY.

That's right, folks. Forget about Jesus Christ, lets just pledge our allegiance to the organization, because it is all about them. Forget about the Holy Spirit, it is the organization who guides us and our understanding.

For without the organization, we wouldn't know our behind from our elbows.

We owe our very life to the organization, which guides us, teaches us, strengthens us.

Glory glory, hallelujah, all praise to the organization!!

------

Or how about this one...

But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. The Watchtower, 9/15/1989, Page 23, para 13, “Be Obedient to Those Taking the Lead”

Yes, because the men who take the lead in the organization, where hand selected by Jehovah himself.

It is Jehovah who chose the elders, not us. We should look at the elders of the organization as apostles/disciples, and trust their leadership and judgement.

Their Biblical understandings supersedes everyone else. They are righteous, holy men who can do no wrong..and it is in them we trust!!

SMH.

Congratulations for having learnt your A-B-Cs

[We_Are_VENOM]

That much is evidendent ....I am posting documented proof of organisational protocol and directives.

But again, the problem is, personal testimony from EXWitnesses contradict those protocol's and directives.

When it is played out in real life, those protocols and directives don't mean a thing. People have testified that they were shunned just for leaving the organization.

I would provide videos from ex members giving their testimony...but you don't appear to be willing to view the videos...for reasons of which I can only conclude...

1. Because you don't want to confront the truth

2. Because you will feel guilty about viewing content not funneled through the WTS first

Because I can guarantee, if the video was posted on JW.org and mandated that every member view it, then you would view it.

But because the video is coming from me, it gets no views.

Jehovah's Witnesses are trained/programmed/told not to view any literature that isn't of WTS nature. They will not visit any churches, accept any non-JW literature, watch any anti-JW videos, or take any advice from a non-JW.

But they go out suggesting that people attend their Kingdom Halls, accept their WTS literature, visit their JW.org website, and take their advice.

What kind of foolishness is that?

[We_Are_VENOM]

Why do you believe them? They are disgruntled because they were caught doing something unchristian or they complain because they aren't noticed more and given more authority....there are many reasons that the people formerly "on the ground" are up in arms about the WTS, and none of their complaints are valid. I know, because I have been on the ground for 47 years and I've seen it all.

The problem is, not what the links that JW shares say, but what the "personal testimonies from ex-JWs" are. Why choose to believe them and not someone like myself? They lie through their teeth, for their own interests, and they are vicious, intent on nothing but tearing down.

Have you watched any of the videos?

Because if you had, then you would know that not all of those who left the organization disassociated themselves due to any wrongdoing...unless you call finding out that the WTS isn't the truth after all is an act of wrongdoing. I don't.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, are JW's allowed to be independent thinkers, that is; THINK FOR THEMSELVES?

What was that got to do with the OP? Are you suggesting that thinking wrong is a disfellowshipping offense?

If you would just like to know more about our general teachings feel free to post in the appropriate forum and I certainly will consider answering...

I am in this particular thread to discuss the OP question about disfellowshipping and nothing else. So, do you have anything you would ask me about this practice that has not already been dealt with or not?

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY

[JehovahsWitness]

But again, the problem is, personal testimony from EXWitnesses contradict those protocol's and directives.

Firstly, I don't know that they do. In my experience, few ex-witnesses claim protocol was not followed in their case. They may be critical of that protocol, they may contest their own particular verdict if they were judged according to protocol, but what specifically have I said should happen regarding leaving (or being expulsed) that they say does not happen?

The point is, when one listens very carefully to what some ex-witnesses say, they are simply claiming the protocol (which I have outlined here) was indeed followed .... but they don't like it; to which I respond.... So what? All Jehoavh's Witnesses are aware of the arrangement before engaging, if they dont like it, no longer being a Witness is the best possible outcome for them; they are no longer Witnesses, everyone happy.

People have testified that they were shunned just for leaving the organization.

If by "just for leaving" they mean they were disfellowshipped simply because they stopped attending meetings, and that ...

- they did not present a formal request to be disassociated
- they did not engaged in behaviours violate bible standards as defined by our religion either during or immediently following active association with our religion

... then there is no reason to believe such individuals are not lying and/or withholding relevant information.

Few, if any non-witnesses have the wherewithal to ask about the two specific points in brown in the box above and I would bet my car and the keys to it these so-called "testimonal videos" do not contain specific statements confirming the above.


APPLICATION OF POLICY

Jehovahs Witnnesses are extremely meticulous when it comes to the the application of policy. If the rules are based on divine principle, those that apply them are not perfect, so errors are sometimes made. (Errors however are usually made in NOT taking action against somebody that should have been expelled rather than unjustly putting someone out that should have been allowed to remain). In any case, no official congregational judgements are made by a sole individual, all are open to appeal and such decisions are documented and checked by outside audit. If somebody feels the published policy was not applied, they have simply to write to branch headquarters and request an outside investigation. How many of these "testimonies" include appeals in this basis? Or even mention this was an option?

Further one of the criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses is we are too contolled by official policy, too obedient (some even claim mind contolled), if JWs are indeed so controlled, how can there also exist a systemic culture of ignoring official rules and directives?

CONCLUSION If there is a conflict between testimonies on anti-witness sites and what active witneses say, it is simply because many of these sites neglect to properly explain the language we Jehovahs Witnesses use and/or fail to mention certain facts about the process of disfellowshipping that would highlight how reasonable our position actually is. They tend to play on the popular misconceptions and often fail to explain what "shunning" does and does not entail in the Jehovahs Witness faith. Few, in my experience admit to having any personal responsibility for their situations.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES




RELATED POSTS

Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583

Why is there an apparent conflict between the official JWs of disfellowshipping and what is stated on many ex-witness sites?
viewtopic.php?p=1066954#p1066954

Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to hide their reasons for leaving the religion from friends and family To avoid bejng shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066677#p1066677

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY

[onewithhim]

Why do you believe them? They are disgruntled because they were caught doing something unchristian or they complain because they aren't noticed more and given more authority....there are many reasons that the people formerly "on the ground" are up in arms about the WTS, and none of their complaints are valid. I know, because I have been on the ground for 47 years and I've seen it all.

The problem is, not what the links that JW shares say, but what the "personal testimonies from ex-JWs" are. Why choose to believe them and not someone like myself? They lie through their teeth, for their own interests, and they are vicious, intent on nothing but tearing down.

Have you watched any of the videos?

Because if you had, then you would know that not all of those who left the organization disassociated themselves due to any wrongdoing...unless you call finding out that the WTS isn't the truth after all is an act of wrongdoing. I don't.

If ex-Witnesses' complaints were analyzed we might see the flimsiness of their stories. I have indeed seen so-called documentary reports concerning certain ex-JWs claiming various things, and I could see right through what they were saying. I have watched the accounts by a couple of "brothers" before I knew they were turning apostate, them telling bold-faced lies about what the organization does. I have known JWs who turned against the organization...known them closely, they were good friends of mine. I know what goes through an ex-JW's mind, believe me. "Finding out that the WTS isn't the truth" is a really weak stance. Before baptism a person has to go through a fairly long educational time period, and they know everything about the organization. I know this. I went through it 47 years ago. A person knows all about doctrine and ours compared with other religions' doctrines. There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #0]

Question; what is your methodology when it comes to responding to posts??

Sooo, you selectively respond to a partial of a post...leading one to conclude that this is the end of it.

And then you respond to another part of the same post...days later, so that wasn't the end of it.

The amount of sense that this makes equates to 0.

But hey, do you

[We_Are_VENOM]

If ex-Witnesses' complaints were analyzed we might see the flimsiness of their stories. I have indeed seen so-called documentary reports concerning certain ex-JWs claiming various things, and I could see right through what they were saying. I have watched the accounts by a couple of "brothers" before I knew they were turning apostate, them telling bold-faced lies about what the organization does. I have known JWs who turned against the organization...known them closely, they were good friends of mine. I know what goes through an ex-JW's mind, believe me. "Finding out that the WTS isn't the truth" is a really weak stance. Before baptism a person has to go through a fairly long educational time period, and they know everything about the organization. I know this. I went through it 47 years ago. A person knows all about doctrine and ours compared with other religions' doctrines. There is no excuse to say that suddenly they have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth. It is a cop-out.

Sooo, what we have here is a conflict between Ex-Witnesses claims about Jehovah's Witnesses, and that of active Witnesses.

Which is not uncommon. Whenever you have defactors of an organization/party/religion...there will always be..

Defactors: "Those guys are crazy, they partake in X,Y,Z"

Remainders: "Those guys are lying. They are just disgruntled workers who left because they couldn't take the heat."

Never fails.

My response? Well, you say there is no excuse when they suddenly have found that the WTS isn't teaching the truth.

Well, guess what?

I found out that the WTS isn't teaching the truth, and I was never even part of the organization.

Good enough for me to take their side.

And besides, have you ever considered that the reason an Ex Witness would leave the organization, because perhaps their light had gotten "brighter"?