"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

.

The disciple whom Jesus loved is referred to, specifically, six times in the book of John.


John 13:23-25
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

__________________________

John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

__________________________

John 20:1-2

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

__________________________

John 21: 7
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was
naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

__________________________

John 21: 20-23
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

__________________________

John 21: 24
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


As for which disciple Jesus was in love with, in the Wikipdia article: "Disciple whom Jesus loved"; the main candidate is none other than John himself

"Some scholars have additionally suggested a homoerotic interpretation of Christ's relationship with the Beloved Disciple, although such a scriptural reading is disputed . . . . Tilborg suggests that the portrait in the Gospel of John is "positively attuned to the development of possibly homosexual behaviour". . . .

The relationship between Christ and John was certainly interpreted by some as being of a physical erotic nature as early as the 16th century (albeit in a "heretical" context) - documented, for example, in the trial for blasphemy of Christopher Marlowe, who was accused of claiming that "St. John the Evangelist was bedfellow to Christ and leaned always in his bosom, that he used him as the sinners of Sodoma". In accusing Marlowe of the "sinful nature" of homosexual acts, James I of England inevitably invited comparisons to his own erotic relationship with the Duke of Buckingham which he also compared to that of the Beloved Disciple. Finally, Francesco Calcagno, a friar of Venicefaced trial and was executed in 1550 for claiming that "St. John was Christ's catamite".

Dynes also makes a link to the modern day where in 1970s New York a popular religious group was established called the "Church of the Beloved Disciple", with the intention of giving a positive reading of the relationship to support respect for same-sex love."


However, based on John 11:5: "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus", and John 11:3 "Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick." some scholars feel Lazarus of Bethany is a better candidate,

Others, through a bit of tap dancing, have proposed that the beloved disciple was originally Mary Magdalene

Or, Jesus's beloved disciple may have been "a priestly member of a quasimonastic, mystical, and ascetic Jewish aristocracy, located on Jerusalem's prestigious southwest hill, who had hosted Jesus' last supper in that location"

Whatever the case, none of these scholars seem to have denied a homosexual connection with the Beloved Disciple. Even today there are those who believe Jesus was gay.




"Was Jesus gay? Probably"
.............by Paul Oestreicher

I preached on Good Friday that Jesus's intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt deeply it had to be addressed.

Jesus was a Hebrew rabbi. Unusually, he was unmarried. The idea that he had a romantic relationship with Mary Magdalene is the stuff of fiction, based on no biblical evidence. The evidence, on the other hand, that he may have been what we today call gay is very strong. But even gay rights campaigners in the church have been reluctant to suggest it. A significant exception was Hugh Montefiore, bishop of Birmingham and a convert from a prominent Jewish family. He dared to suggest that possibility and was met with disdain, as though he were simply out to shock.

After much reflection and with certainly no wish to shock, I felt I was left with no option but to suggest, for the first time in half a century of my Anglican priesthood, that Jesus may well have been homosexual. Had he been devoid of sexuality, he would not have been truly human. To believe that would be heretical.
source


SO, what do you, members of Debating Christianity and Religion, think? Jesus: likely gay or not?


.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #111

Post by Miles »

gadfly wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:45 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:12 pm
Revelations won wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:53 pm Dear Miles,

Your OP post does not provide any undeniable proof in support of your private interpretations.
You're right, it doesn't. Now what?


.
The Post sees references to the (male) disciple whom Jesus loved, and asks whether "love" (Greek=agape) here refers to erotic love, or sexual attraction. But of course the same Greek verb occurs elsewhere in John (only verses where the same Greek root are presented):

Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. (Joh 11:5 NAS)

Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. (Joh 13:1 NAS)

Any theory of homosexuality must contend with the following facts:

a) Jesus clearly 'loved' others, both Martha, her sister, and Lazarus, and "His own who were in the world". It is the same verb. Did he have erotic feelings for Martha, her sister, Lazarus, and ALL of his disciples? One could conclude, "Yes". But why should we accept this? Just because it is astonishing and will win readers because readers like astonishing things?

b) The Greek term "agape" elsewhere in the N.T. does not have erotic connotations: when Paul writes of "love" in 1 Corinthians 13 he is clearly not referring to erotic love.

"Love" in English has a a wide range of meaning: I can say I love my male partner in one breath, and I love Sushi in the next.

Conclusion: the "gay argument" is linguistically challenged, depending on English translations and selective reading.

But it was a good exercise in linguistics, so thank you.
You might have a point, were it not for the fact that it's overshadowed by John's repetitive pronouncements:

The
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"


Which is an excessive and certainly unnecessary reaffirmation of the fact. If this love was simply "philia" love, true friendship love, it wouldn't have to be mentioned more than once or at most twice, but SIX times? Nope, this is "eros" love. A personal infatuation and special attraction to another person.

.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #112

Post by nobspeople »

Miles wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:02 am
gadfly wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:45 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:12 pm
Revelations won wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:53 pm Dear Miles,

Your OP post does not provide any undeniable proof in support of your private interpretations.
You're right, it doesn't. Now what?


.
The Post sees references to the (male) disciple whom Jesus loved, and asks whether "love" (Greek=agape) here refers to erotic love, or sexual attraction. But of course the same Greek verb occurs elsewhere in John (only verses where the same Greek root are presented):

Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. (Joh 11:5 NAS)

Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. (Joh 13:1 NAS)

Any theory of homosexuality must contend with the following facts:

a) Jesus clearly 'loved' others, both Martha, her sister, and Lazarus, and "His own who were in the world". It is the same verb. Did he have erotic feelings for Martha, her sister, Lazarus, and ALL of his disciples? One could conclude, "Yes". But why should we accept this? Just because it is astonishing and will win readers because readers like astonishing things?

b) The Greek term "agape" elsewhere in the N.T. does not have erotic connotations: when Paul writes of "love" in 1 Corinthians 13 he is clearly not referring to erotic love.

"Love" in English has a a wide range of meaning: I can say I love my male partner in one breath, and I love Sushi in the next.

Conclusion: the "gay argument" is linguistically challenged, depending on English translations and selective reading.

But it was a good exercise in linguistics, so thank you.
You might have a point, were it not for the fact that it's overshadowed by John's repetitive pronouncements:

The
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"


Which is an excessive and certainly unnecessary reaffirmation of the fact. If this love was simply "philia" love, true friendship love, it wouldn't have to be mentioned more than once or at most twice, but SIX times? Nope, this is "eros" love. A personal infatuation and special attraction to another person.

.
Interesting POV - thanks for providing it.
It makes me wonder: was this exactly what Jesus said or was it what the writer wanted to portray? In other words, did Jesus have same-sex love for this man, of did the writer WANT readers to think this?
Of course we can't know one way or the other, but it's something interesting to consider.
Thanks again
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #113

Post by PinSeeker »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:01 pm Interesting POV - thanks for providing it.
Well yes, it is... "interesting"... and wrong at the same time. The term is 'agape,' and not 'philia' (brotherly love) or 'philautia' (self-love), or 'eros' (affection of a sexual nature). Rather, it embraces a universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance. It goes beyond just the emotions to the extent of seeking the best for others. In the Biblical context, 'agape' is the love originating from God and Christ for humankind. Particularly in the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans. Only God is really capable of this degree of love, and the fact that John makes clear that Jesus loves with such a love is yet another explicit statement that Jesus is God incarnate. In addition, it is John calling himself the disciple whom Jesus loved (as said, many times -- six to be precise), and in so doing conveying both his undeservedness of this unconditional, transcending, even choosing and saving love and the indescribably amazing grace of God/Jesus in extending it to him, and even pouring it out upon him. And in doing that, John is impressing on us as recipients of that same love the indescribably amazing grace of God available to each of us. This is the very theme of John's -- John the Evangelist's -- song/Gospel.

Grace and peace to all.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #114

Post by nobspeople »

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:31 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:01 pm Interesting POV - thanks for providing it.
Well yes, it is... "interesting"... and wrong at the same time. The term is agape, and not philia (brotherly love) or philautia (self-love), or eros (affection of a sexual nature). Rather, it embraces a universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance. It goes beyond just the emotions to the extent of seeking the best for others. Within Christianity, agape is considered to be the love originating from God or Christ for humankind, and particularly in the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans. Only God is really capable of this degree of love, and the fact that John makes clear that Jesus loves with such a love is yet another explicit statement that Jesus is God incarnate.

Grace and peace to all.
Yes
I'm familiar with the use of the 'love words' here. However, I've seen debate on this issue (which words were originally used, for example).
But that alone doesn't eliminate the possibility, for me (and others) over the question at hand.
Personally, I don't much care either way, but still fascinating to discuss and consider, to me at least.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #115

Post by Goose »

Miles wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:20 pmSO, what do you, members of Debating Christianity and Religion, think? Jesus: likely gay or not?
In terms of probability? Unlikely. Even if we allow the dubious assumption estimates of those who identify as LGBT in America are representative of Jewish men living in the first century we have a low prior probability of around 3.9% that Jesus was gay (or bi-sexual).
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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #116

Post by Difflugia »

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:31 pmWell yes, it is... "interesting"... and wrong at the same time. The term is 'agape,' and not 'philia' (brotherly love) or 'philautia' (self-love), or 'eros' (affection of a sexual nature). Rather, it embraces a universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance.
No, it's your insistence on a contrast between agape and eros that's wrong.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread:
Difflugia wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:04 pmThis position isn't as strong as you'd like it to be. The Septuagint (which pretty much defines the Greek of Hellenistic Judaism) uses forms of agapao to represesent romantic (and presumably sexual) attachments as well as the love between siblings or close friends. The author of John didn't use eros for the same reason that the Septuagint doesn't. I don't know what that reason is, but it doesn't matter; the Koine of Judaism routinely used agapao in situations that in context could only mean romantic love. If the context is ambiguous, then agapao is ambiguous.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by PinSeeker »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:44 pm I'm familiar with the use of the 'love words' here. However, I've seen debate on this issue (which words were originally used, for example). But that alone doesn't eliminate the possibility, for me (and others) over the question at hand.
Well, it should. :) But... understood.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:44 pm Personally, I don't much care either way, but still fascinating to discuss and consider, to me at least.
I agree that it's fascinating to discuss, but for a much different reason, apparently.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #118

Post by nobspeople »

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:09 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:44 pm I'm familiar with the use of the 'love words' here. However, I've seen debate on this issue (which words were originally used, for example). But that alone doesn't eliminate the possibility, for me (and others) over the question at hand.
Well, it should. :) But... understood.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:44 pm Personally, I don't much care either way, but still fascinating to discuss and consider, to me at least.
I agree that it's fascinating to discuss, but for a much different reason, apparently.

Grace and peace to you.
Why should it eliminate the question? It has been demonstrated in this very thread that there are issues with the words and how they're used.
Is it because you know you're right and everyone else is wrong? You have some sort of special ability and understand things more than anyone else? Because it fits your paradigm? Honestly curious.

And to what different reasons do you refer in your last statement? Please be as specific as possible.
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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by PinSeeker »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:02 pm No, it's your insistence on a contrast between agape and eros that's wrong.
I appreciate your opinion, but 'agape' and 'eros' are vastly different concepts. There's more to it than this, of course, but 'eros' -- as directly opposed to 'agape' -- is not transcending in any way, and it's really self-indulgent. Grace and peace to you.

@nobspeople: This should answer your question above. Grace and peace to you also.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #120

Post by Difflugia »

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:18 pmI appreciate your opinion, but 'agape' and 'eros' are vastly different concepts. There's more to it than this, of course, but 'eros' -- as directly opposed to 'agape' -- is not transcending in any way, and it's really self-indulgent. Grace and peace to you.
I'm not sure what you imagine that means, but if Jesus ἠγάπησεν the Beloved Disciple in the same way that Isaac ἠγάπησεν Rebekah in Genesis 24:67, then Jesus was gay.

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