Is hell eternal or not?

[scorpia]

Just a couple of references;

2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .

This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....

Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

This verse is similair

Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"

Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 11 Post 109

>my bolding<
The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

To me, primary indicates secondary references can be used as well. In your making claims about Hell, I asked for secondary references.

Please note, 'primary' is not a synonym for 'only'.

You are making claims that at least in theory affect people's lives. I'd think you'd want to provide as much support for these claims as possible.

I have previously said I accept that what you've said is in the Bible, I asked if you could point to any secondary references. I realize your primary source is the Bible. The Bible itself says human beings are fallible. I can only assume you are human. With this in mind I don't think it unreasonable to ask for secondary sources of proof, especially in regards to what is for all intents a physical place.

You have the right to remain silent

But I don't have the ability - Ron White


It is a central tenet of honest debate that a single source is less credible than multiple sources.

I will continue to ask if you can provide secondary support for your claims regarding an ostensibly physical thing.

Instead of accepting my giving up on you proving your claims you would try to mock me for lacking the patience to put up with your dishonorable stalling tactics. Since you would prefer to drag the debate out, I'll drag it out till the cows come home or the mods shut me up. I got a feeling it won't be because you've proven or retracted your claims.

If I'm forced off the issue, the observer will see that silencing requests for proof is more important than providing proof.

[myth-one.com]

I will continue to ask if you can provide secondary support for your claims regarding an ostensibly physical thing.

The only physical location of hell is that it is in "outer darkness:"

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)

Terms such as "cast" and "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" imply that these verses are references to hell. If these verses do refer to hell, then hell is located in outer darkness. But what does "outer darkness" mean? As an indicator of location in our universe this has no meaning to man. If the universe is indeed infinite, then from any point in the universe one can travel infinitely in all directions and never reach the end of the universe. Therefore, outer and inner have no meaning as locations within our universe. Once again, it is some of the heavenly world which mankind cannot understand.

"Outer darkness" could indicate the state of death. That is, the darkest of dark, without any light or cognizance. After all, the dead know not anything:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Indeed, "outer darkness" is a good description of hell as regards man, since all men cast into hell are quickly burned to death. This is their second death and the end of their existence; thus, outer darkness.
________________________________________________________________

Secondary Sources: The above scripture references were from the King James Version of the Holy Bible. You should find something very similar in the following:

1) New International Version
2) New American Standard Bible
3)The Message
4)Amplified Bible
5)New Living Translation
6) English Standard Version
7)Contempory English Version
8) New King James Version
9) New Century Version
10) 21st Century King James Version
11) American Standard Version
12) Young's Literal Translation
13) Darby Translation
14) Holman Christian Standard Bible
15) New International Reader's Version
16) Wycliffe English
17) Worldwide English
18) Today's New International Version

[JoeyKnothead]

Now see, don't ya feel so much better now.

Let the observer note there's not one reference cited that can definitively prove many of the previous claims that have still not been addressed. You will find many references to it, but no quantifiable evidence other than opinion.

(edit for clarity)

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 12 Post 112

If these verses do refer to hell, then hell is located in outer darkness.

Is there any way we can verify these verses do refer to Hell?

But what does "outer darkness" mean? As an indicator of location in our universe this has no meaning to man.

If it has no meaning to man, what's the point in mentioning it?

Once again, it is some of the heavenly world which mankind cannot understand.

Then why bother mentioning it? If mankind cannot understand it, wouldn't it be a bit unfair to ask us to risk punishment in something we can't understand?

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Then the dead won't know they're in this place they can't understand? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Hell as a punishment?

Indeed, "outer darkness" is a good description of hell as regards man, since all men cast into hell are quickly burned to death.

Please provide proof for this claim.

[GospelJohn]

For me, heaven and hell are not discreet locations. I believe hell to be our separation from God in consciousness. Anything short of aligning our own free will perfectly with His results in selfishness. Sowing the seeds of selfishness means we will reap the same, and that's never fun. It is only through making loving choices that we are always pleased with the harvest of the choices we've made.

I also believe there is a big difference between the concept of an eternal hell and that of an irreversible hell. If we imagine throwing an object into space without any gravitational or other interference with its trajectory, for how long would it continue away from its place of origin? The answer is that the object would be eternally separated and moving farther away at each moment. However, if the object had control (free will) over its path and can always choose to reverse direction and return "home," then what was potentially an eternal separation (hell) would not be an irreversible separation once the decision to return home is made.

This perspective validates both traditional Christianity's POV that hell is eternal (if we so choose) and yet allows for God's will that not one soul should perish to be fulfilled. Simply remove the time limit of the relative span of a human lifetime from the conditions of our salvation, and both "truths" become reconciled.

Since I'm new here, I'll stop at that and see if anyone cares to pursue this further.

[myth-one.com]

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Then the dead won't know they're in this place they can't understand? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Hell as a punishment?

No. The punishment does not occur until they are resurrected back to life from their graves after the Second Coming. Since the dead know nothing, it will seem to them that they went to another life instantly upon dying. After man dies his or her first death, they rest in peace, slumber, or sleep, etc, in their graves until the Second Coming. After resurrection, they may suffer their second and permanent death.

Indeed, "outer darkness" is a good description of hell as regards man, since all men cast into hell are quickly burned to death.

Please provide proof for this claim.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

All mankind can be divided into two groups, believers and nonbelievers. Believers are resurrected to everlasting life and nonbelievers perish quickly in the lake of fire:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

An everlasting life of torment is not a second death! In the traditional Christian concept, man has an immortal soul which neither the first nor second death can kill. Therefore, for these traditional Christian theologians, death must be interpreted to be something other than death! This contradicts the Bible, which states that the unsaved die, perish, and are lost and gone for eternity. That is the end, or death, of them. There is no recovery from the second death. Christians are saved from the second death, when they are born again as immortal spiritual bodies after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ:

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (Revelation 2:11)

[MagusYanam]

[myth-one.com]

No one can overcome the second death through any action she can take or any creed that she can say.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)

Anyone can take the action of believing in Jesus as their Savior and overcome the second death.

That's why I don't buy the glib 'believers and unbelievers' bit.

Every person either believes or does not believe. There are only two groups.

I believe that all things are possible for God, including the salvation of unbelievers.

At that time, they will have to be believers:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Unbelievers perish. According to the Bible, the only path to salvation is to believe in Jesus:

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

Does that make me a universalist who knows that God will save all?

God is going to save a relative few:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Yet I hope that hell is not eternal;

It is eternal only because it is the eternal prison for Satan. Since Satan lives forever, his prison must also exist forever. No human will be alive in hell for eternity. They will quickly suffer their second death.

The Gospel tells us that God so loves the world that he means to save it - and I hope he will succeed.

Where do the scriptures say that?

[MagusYanam]

myth-one.com

In saying that salvation is earned by the act of believing, an action which distinguishes believers from non-believers, you seem to be implying that salvation is a matter of works, which would place you fairly firmly outside Protestant orthodoxy. I would argue that no effort human beings make for themselves to stay upon the straight and narrow path is sufficient, without grace. I believe that God is free to offer grace for human beings, and I also believe that human beings are free to accept or reject it. But placing an over-emphasis on the free choice taken by man, as it seems to me that you are doing, makes for a portrayal of an impotent God.

God is free. And God's intention for the world is contained in the quote you neglected to complete:

'For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

'Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.'

The latter sentence is not a denial of grace to unbelievers. God is free, God is powerful and God is patient - and cannot be thwarted by any feeble human attempt to restrain that freedom. The freedom of unbelievers to reject God is a self-condemning paradox in that it is wholly reliant on God's acceptance of them. When you make the distinction between unbelievers and believers, and say that unbelievers perish, that is essentially to say that God's freedom is insufficient, that God's intention cannot be carried out, in other words that God will fail.

Do I know what will happen to every soul? In some sense, that's not for me to know, and that's not for you to know. But I choose to continue to live in hope and in faith that Christ's love will be enough.

[myth-one.com]

In saying that salvation is earned by the act of believing, an action which distinguishes believers from non-believers, you seem to be implying that salvation is a matter of works, which would place you fairly firmly outside Protestant orthodoxy.

It is not I who said that; you give me too much credit. It is not for me to say, but to believe. I was quoting Jesus speaking in the New Testament book of John:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

Jesus clearly states that those who believe in Him will be saved from perishing in the second death. They will have (future tense) everlasting life. It is very clear to me.