Must we keep the 10 commandments to be saved

[DansingWall]

The bible appears to say yes. Whats your thoughts

[Goat]

because of all the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. because of the prophetic timeline interpreted through the Bible of what has happened and what is going to happen. because of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar and the role of Rome as the last part of the statue (the feet) and the influence which has power in the time of the Laodicean church (before the great stone topples the statue aka God's kingdom is established) i not only believe the Bible is true, i can tell you that I know 100 percent that it is the source of truth because of the prophecies already fulfilled. If you read Isaiah and the other messianic prophets you will see that Jesus (as the Son of God coming to Earth) was all foreseen.

I have seen the claims of 'fulfilled prophecies' in the bible. I have found them entirely unconvincing, because it is all either 'after the fact', mis intepretations, out of context quotes,'shoe horned into place, or vague references that can mean anything.

Either that, or they were goals that were striven for just because they were in the bible (self fullilling prophecies).

Because of that, your argument to me is meaningless.

Not all denominations interpret the prophecies correctly...

and there is probably nothing i can say that wont be meaningless to you.

you are just fulfilling prophecy.

As the Bible says: they will have eyes and ears but will not see or hear.

I don't see ANY prophecy fulfilled. As for that phrase, that is a little bit of self justification when people say 'You are nuts'. It makes the believer feel better, but other than that, it is a meaningless piece of rhetoric.

The virgin birth of Jesus

Isaiah 7:14:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

(written between 701-681 BC)

There are two really really big problems with this claim. The first one is Matthew was using the greek, and the meaning of the word 'Parthenos' is not necessarily virgin, but can mean virgin. However, the Hebrew, the world "Alamah" means
young woman, not virgin. And, if you read Isaiah 7:1 to 7:19, you can see
that Isaiah is not talking about anybody but his own wife and son in that passage.

It is dishonest of Matthew to try to retofit Jesus into that passage. It is retrofitting an out of context quote to make a prophecy. Read it in context, and you can see that the sign that Isaiah was giving to King Ahaz is that in the length of time that it take this child (Isaiah's own son) to be born, and grow old enough to understand know what good and evil is (about the time he is a toddler), the King of Assyeria will lose some major battles, and not be a threat anymore. It is Isaiah's own son
(I went to the prophetss and insured she conceived), and she wasn't a virgin (Isaiah made sure of that when he got her to conceive). Read Isaiah in context for yourself.

The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem

Micah 5:1-2:

1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod.

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

(written between 750-686 BC)

And this shows how the early christians did not understand that 'out of bethelham' was slang for 'out of the house of David'. It did not mean physically born in Bethelham, but rather from the house that was establish in bethleham (davids)

This is an example of how Matthew and Luke wrote TO what they thought was a prophecy. They disagreed on their details though, and even on the year Jesus was being born (a good 10 year gap there)

The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah

Genesis 49:10:

The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.

(written as early as 1400 BC)


The Messiah would be a descendant of King David

Jeremiah 23:5:

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

(written between 626-586 BC)


John the baptist would prepare the way for Jesus

Isaiah 40:1-3:

1 Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.

2 Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed, that her sin has been paid for, that she has received from the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

3 A voice of one calling: In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.

(written between 701-681 BC)


The Messiah would perform miracles

Isaiah 35:4-6:

4 say to those with fearful hearts, "Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you."

5 Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

6 Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert.

(written between 701-681 BC)


The Messiah would enter Jerusalem while riding on a donkey

Zechariah 9:9:

Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

(written between 520 and 518 BC)


The Messiah would be rejected

Isaiah 53:1-3:

1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

(written between 701-681 BC)



The Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver

Zechariah 11:12-13:

12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

(written between 520 and 518 BC)


The Messiah would be beaten, mocked, and spit upon

Isaiah 50:6:

I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

(written between 701-681 BC)


The Messiah would be silent before His accusers


Isaiah 53:7:

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

(written between 701-681 BC)


The Messiah would die for our sins

Isaiah 53:4-6:

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

(written between 701-681 BC)


The Messiah would be "pierced"

Zechariah 12:10:

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

(written between 520 and 518 BC)


The Messiah would make intercession for sinners

Isaiah 53:12:

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

(written between 701-681 BC)


The Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb

Isaiah 53:9:

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

(written between 701-681 BC)


Not enough proof of prophecy fulfilled? I'll be back with more...

[/quote]

Yes yes yes. a good example of writing TO words. And Isaiah 53:9 has nothing to do with Jesus what so ever.. that is just a missionary lie.

This is known as retrofiting words to make it seem to be prophecy..taking things out of context.. mistranslations too.. It also shows that it isn't Jesus, because Jesus did not have a long life.. (see context.)

[McCulloch]

The virgin birth of Jesus
Isaiah 7:14:
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
(written between 701-681 BC)

Then the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven."
But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!"
Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

To whom is the prophesy in Isaiah addressed? Ahaz.
What time frame did the LORD put on that prophesy? Before the boy mentioned in the prophesy is old enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings Ahaz dreads will be forsaken. Certainly not intended to have been fulfilled 700 years later in the Roman era.

Micah 5:1-2
1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod.
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

(written between 750-686 BC)

Now muster yourselves in troops, daughter of troops;
They have laid siege against us;
With a rod they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek.
But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity."
Therefore He will give them up until the time
When she who is in labor has borne a child
Then the remainder of His brethren
Will return to the sons of Israel.
And He will arise and shepherd His flock
In the strength of the LORD,
In the majesty of the name of the LORD His God
And they will remain,
Because at that time He will be great
To the ends of the earth.
This One will be our peace
When the Assyrian invades our land,
When he tramples on our citadels,
Then we will raise against him
Seven shepherds and eight leaders of men.
They will shepherd the land of Assyria with the sword,
The land of Nimrod at its entrances;
And He will deliver us from the Assyrian
When he attacks our land
And when he tramples our territory.
Then the remnant of Jacob
Will be among many peoples
Like dew from the LORD,
Like showers on vegetation
Which do not wait for man
Or delay for the sons of men.
The remnant of Jacob
Will be among the nations,
Among many peoples
Like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
Like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
Which, if he passes through,
Tramples down and tears,
And there is none to rescue.
Your hand will be lifted up against your adversaries,
And all your enemies will be cut off.
"It will be in that day," declares the LORD,
"That I will cut off your horses from among you
And destroy your chariots.
I will also cut off the cities of your land
And tear down all your fortifications.
"I will cut off sorceries from your hand,
And you will have fortune-tellers no more.
"I will cut off your carved images
And your sacred pillars from among you,
So that you will no longer bow down
To the work of your hands.
"I will root out your Asherim from among you
And destroy your cities.
"And I will execute vengeance in anger and wrath
On the nations which have not obeyed."

Does this prophesy really sound like it was fulfilled in the person of Jesus of Nazareth? Who did he save from the Assyrians?

But, that aside, it would be a very surprising thing if the Christ of the Gospels was not born in Bethlehem. After all, his biographers were steeped from their childhood in the Jewish messianic mythology. They would have known where the Messiah should be born. So, they were writing decades after the event with the express purpose of convincing their readers that this Jesus was the promised Messiah. Of course they would have Jesus being born in Bethlehem. If Jesus was really born in Allentown or Phillipsberg, they would have written that he was born in Bethlehem!

[josefcorrealima]

Daniel predicted the four great kingdoms

Daniel 2:32-33:

32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,

33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.

(1. The head of gold, as Daniel explained, refers to the Babylonian empire that ruled much of the world about 2600 years ago.

2. Daniel said that the head-of-gold empire would be followed by an empire symbolized by arms of silver. Scholars have often interpreted this to refer to the Medo-Persian empire which later conquered the Babylonian empire. The scholars say that the two arms refer to the two groups - the Medes and the Persians - who comprised the Medo-Persian empire.

3. The third kingdom was symbolized by the statue's belly and thighs of brass. Some scholars believe that this is a reference to the Grecian empire, which conquered the Medo-Persian empire. The symbol of a belly and thighs of brass suggests that the kingdom was to start out as a united empire but end up as a divided empire. Under the leadership of Alexander the Great, the Grecian Empire was a united empire. But after Alexander's death, the empire was divided into four parts and was later reduced to two parts.

4. The fourth symbol - that of iron legs and feet that were part iron and part clay - has often been suggested to be a reference to the Roman Empire, which later conquered the Grecian Empire. The Roman Empire was very powerful, but it was also very diverse, claiming dominion over a wide variety of different nations. That diversity later contributed to the downfall of the empire.

These four kingdoms ruled over much of the world, and each of the four ruled over the land of Israel during times in which a significant number of Jews - and perhaps a majority of Jews - were living in their homeland. Before the collapse of the Roman Empire, Jerusalem was destroyed and hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into exile. Even today, a majority of Jews still live outside of Israel. Many scholars suggest that the Roman Empire will be revived and will once again seek to control Israel.) - There are many more specific prophecies (yet to come) about the role of Rome in the last days.


Much of the prophecy of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar has been fulfilled but some is yet to be fulfilled... Daniel and Revelations coincide on many of these specific prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled...

Let me close with something interesting that some of you maybe want to know...

For those new to Biblical prophecy - According to all relevant verses in the Bible -

woman = a church (or people of a certain church)

horn = a king/ruler

beast = a power

head = headquarters of a government

waters = multitude of people

etc.

(if you'd like to know more prophetic definitions let me know and i can also find the verses in the Bible which give these definitions if you want...)

So here's some interesting verses about the great whore that sits on seven hills.

Revelation 17:3-9

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.

5 This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

7 Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.




Now these verses are pretty deep and intense but what church has shown itself (in history) to be drunken with the blood of the saints and martyrs? And what church seems like it might gain power again?

Is it not the Papacy? Is it not the Roman Catholic Church that dresses in purple and scarlet "glittering with gold and precious stones" in all her pomp and pride?

Also John says that the leaders of this church will attempt to change "times and laws" and they have... They've "changed" at least 3 Commandments that I know of... and they even lead the ones who have protested against them to follow in their un-Biblical traditions... (example: Sunday keeping)

This may be all too advanced and even sound like I am mad to those who don't believe in the Bible.

And granted, even when so much proof is provided you STILL have freedom of choice not to believe.

But look at the last verse from revelation:

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

What city is known as the "city that sits on seven hills"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

[OnceConvinced]

I just hope I become an even bigger fool to people like you (unless you repent and become a believer of course).

Been there, done that.

Unless you acknowledge God's omniscience how can you even expect the basic truths of life be revealed to you?

I've been here long enough to know that Goat is quite capable of standing up for himself. However what really gets me riled up is when people quote scriptures to "put down" someone else, simply because they hold a differing opinion or point of view.

Point of view is the key thing here. If we look it at from your point of view, then yes, we can see those truths. But if we don't, then to us those are not truths. Acknowledging God's omniscience is not needed. Just a change in perspective.

[josefcorrealima]

I have done my job. Not everyone will choose to accept salvation.

Have a good day guys...

by the way, no one responded to my post on Revelation 17...

[OnceConvinced]

I have done my job.

What is that job? To deter people from Christianity?

Ok, ok, I'm gonna shut up now. I know I'm adding nothing to the debate here.

[josefcorrealima]

I just hope I become an even bigger fool to people like you (unless you repent and become a believer of course).

Been there, done that.

Unless you acknowledge God's omniscience how can you even expect the basic truths of life be revealed to you?

I've been here long enough to know that Goat is quite capable of standing up for himself. However what really gets me riled up is when people quote scriptures to "put down" someone else, simply because they hold a differing opinion or point of view.

Point of view is the key thing here. If we look it at from your point of view, then yes, we can see those truths. But if we don't, then to us those are not truths. Acknowledging God's omniscience is not needed. Just a change in perspective.

I am sorry if I sounded like I was trying to put Goat down. That was not my intention. The same thing goes for me, I don't expect God to force the truth down my throat if I first do not accept His omniscience.

We are not robots, we have freedom of choice. The freedom to accept the Truth, or not.

[Goat]

Daniel predicted the four great kingdoms

Daniel 2:32-33:

32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,

33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.

(1. The head of gold, as Daniel explained, refers to the Babylonian empire that ruled much of the world about 2600 years ago.

2. Daniel said that the head-of-gold empire would be followed by an empire symbolized by arms of silver. Scholars have often interpreted this to refer to the Medo-Persian empire which later conquered the Babylonian empire. The scholars say that the two arms refer to the two groups - the Medes and the Persians - who comprised the Medo-Persian empire.

3. The third kingdom was symbolized by the statue's belly and thighs of brass. Some scholars believe that this is a reference to the Grecian empire, which conquered the Medo-Persian empire. The symbol of a belly and thighs of brass suggests that the kingdom was to start out as a united empire but end up as a divided empire. Under the leadership of Alexander the Great, the Grecian Empire was a united empire. But after Alexander's death, the empire was divided into four parts and was later reduced to two parts.

4. The fourth symbol - that of iron legs and feet that were part iron and part clay - has often been suggested to be a reference to the Roman Empire, which later conquered the Grecian Empire. The Roman Empire was very powerful, but it was also very diverse, claiming dominion over a wide variety of different nations. That diversity later contributed to the downfall of the empire.

These four kingdoms ruled over much of the world, and each of the four ruled over the land of Israel during times in which a significant number of Jews - and perhaps a majority of Jews - were living in their homeland. Before the collapse of the Roman Empire, Jerusalem was destroyed and hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into exile. Even today, a majority of Jews still live outside of Israel. Many scholars suggest that the Roman Empire will be revived and will once again seek to control Israel.) - There are many more specific prophecies (yet to come) about the role of Rome in the last days.


Much of the prophecy of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar has been fulfilled but some is yet to be fulfilled... Daniel and Revelations coincide on many of these specific prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled...

Let me close with something interesting that some of you maybe want to know...

For those new to Biblical prophecy - According to all relevant verses in the Bible -

woman = a church (or people of a certain church)

horn = a king/ruler

beast = a power

head = headquarters of a government

waters = multitude of people

etc.

(if you'd like to know more prophetic definitions let me know and i can also find the verses in the Bible which give these definitions if you want...)

So here's some interesting verses about the great whore that sits on seven hills.

Revelation 17:3-9

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.

5 This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

7 Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.




Now these verses are pretty deep and intense but what church has shown itself (in history) to be drunken with the blood of the saints and martyrs? And what church seems like it might gain power again?

Is it not the Papacy? Is it not the Roman Catholic Church that dresses in purple and scarlet "glittering with gold and precious stones" in all her pomp and pride?

Also John says that the leaders of this church will attempt to change "times and laws" and they have... They've "changed" at least 3 Commandments that I know of... and they even lead the ones who have protested against them to follow in their un-Biblical traditions... (example: Sunday keeping)

This may be all too advanced and even sound like I am mad to those who don't believe in the Bible.

And granted, even when so much proof is provided you STILL have freedom of choice not to believe.

But look at the last verse from revelation:

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

What city is known as the "city that sits on seven hills"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

Then you go and quote some passages that are so vague that there is dozens of explanations for. When something is in code words, and you got at least 2 or 3 competing explanations, that is known as 'shoe horning' into place. It is interpreted to mean anything the reader wants it to do, by changing the symbolism around a bit.

SO far, you are batting 0.

[josefcorrealima]

I have done my job.

What is that job? To deter people from Christianity?

Ok, ok, I'm gonna shut up now. I know I'm adding nothing to the debate here.

lol, man i really hope i'm not deterring anyone from Christ... I am really not well with explaining things... especially the love of Jesus and forgiveness and such things...

the truth is we have more in common than we think. we all suffer, we are all sinners, we all of the same necessities... i want the best for you guys. i most certainly do not want to turn you away from Christ and the Bible...

i'm open to any suggestions...

except the suggestion that denies Jesus and the Bible of course...

[josefcorrealima]

Daniel predicted the four great kingdoms

Daniel 2:32-33:

32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,

33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.

(1. The head of gold, as Daniel explained, refers to the Babylonian empire that ruled much of the world about 2600 years ago.

2. Daniel said that the head-of-gold empire would be followed by an empire symbolized by arms of silver. Scholars have often interpreted this to refer to the Medo-Persian empire which later conquered the Babylonian empire. The scholars say that the two arms refer to the two groups - the Medes and the Persians - who comprised the Medo-Persian empire.

3. The third kingdom was symbolized by the statue's belly and thighs of brass. Some scholars believe that this is a reference to the Grecian empire, which conquered the Medo-Persian empire. The symbol of a belly and thighs of brass suggests that the kingdom was to start out as a united empire but end up as a divided empire. Under the leadership of Alexander the Great, the Grecian Empire was a united empire. But after Alexander's death, the empire was divided into four parts and was later reduced to two parts.

4. The fourth symbol - that of iron legs and feet that were part iron and part clay - has often been suggested to be a reference to the Roman Empire, which later conquered the Grecian Empire. The Roman Empire was very powerful, but it was also very diverse, claiming dominion over a wide variety of different nations. That diversity later contributed to the downfall of the empire.

These four kingdoms ruled over much of the world, and each of the four ruled over the land of Israel during times in which a significant number of Jews - and perhaps a majority of Jews - were living in their homeland. Before the collapse of the Roman Empire, Jerusalem was destroyed and hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced into exile. Even today, a majority of Jews still live outside of Israel. Many scholars suggest that the Roman Empire will be revived and will once again seek to control Israel.) - There are many more specific prophecies (yet to come) about the role of Rome in the last days.


Much of the prophecy of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar has been fulfilled but some is yet to be fulfilled... Daniel and Revelations coincide on many of these specific prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled...

Let me close with something interesting that some of you maybe want to know...

For those new to Biblical prophecy - According to all relevant verses in the Bible -

woman = a church (or people of a certain church)

horn = a king/ruler

beast = a power

head = headquarters of a government

waters = multitude of people

etc.

(if you'd like to know more prophetic definitions let me know and i can also find the verses in the Bible which give these definitions if you want...)

So here's some interesting verses about the great whore that sits on seven hills.

Revelation 17:3-9

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.

5 This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

7 Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.




Now these verses are pretty deep and intense but what church has shown itself (in history) to be drunken with the blood of the saints and martyrs? And what church seems like it might gain power again?

Is it not the Papacy? Is it not the Roman Catholic Church that dresses in purple and scarlet "glittering with gold and precious stones" in all her pomp and pride?

Also John says that the leaders of this church will attempt to change "times and laws" and they have... They've "changed" at least 3 Commandments that I know of... and they even lead the ones who have protested against them to follow in their un-Biblical traditions... (example: Sunday keeping)

This may be all too advanced and even sound like I am mad to those who don't believe in the Bible.

And granted, even when so much proof is provided you STILL have freedom of choice not to believe.

But look at the last verse from revelation:

9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

What city is known as the "city that sits on seven hills"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

Then you go and quote some passages that are so vague that there is dozens of explanations for. When something is in code words, and you got at least 2 or 3 competing explanations, that is known as 'shoe horning' into place. It is interpreted to mean anything the reader wants it to do, by changing the symbolism around a bit.

SO far, you are batting 0.

If someone writes deep lyrics to a song it can mean different things to the listener. But the creator of the song knows what its true meaning is.

Let the Bible explain itself, and pray for God, the Creator of the universe, to interpret it for you and you should have the correct interpretation if your purpose is right.

I'm not much for baseball but what is the top score a team can get?
I am batting 0 but God and the truth is batting that amount...